The difference is that there are many actions that help other people but don’t give an appropriate altruistic high (because your brain doesn’t see or relate to those people much) and there are actions that produce a net zero or net negative effect but do produce an altruistic high.
The built-in care-o-meter of your body has known faults and biases, and it measures something often related (at least in classic hunter-gatherer society model) but generally different from actually caring about other people.
I came to the conclusion that I needed more quantitative data about the ecosystem. Sure birds covered in oil look sad, but would a massive loss of biodiversity on THIS beach effect the entire ecosystem? The real question I had in this thought experiment was “how should I prevent this from happening in the future?” Perhaps nationalizing oil drilling platforms would allow governments to better regulate the potentially hazardous practice. There is a game going on whereby some players are motivated by the profit incentive and others are motivated by genuine altruism, but it doesn’t take place on the beach. I certainly never owned an oil rig, and couldn’t really competently discuss the problems associated with actual large high pressure systems. Does anyone here know if oil spills are an unavoidable consequence of the best long term strategy for human development? That might be important to an informed decision on how much value to place on the cost of the accident, which would inform my decision about how much of my resources I should devote to cleaning the birds.
From another perspective, its a lot easier to quantify the cost for some outcomes … This makes it genuinely difficult to define genuinely altruistic strategies for entities experiencing scope insensitivity. And along that line giving away money because of scope insensitivity IS amoral. It differs judgement to a poorly defined entity which might manage our funds well or deplorably. Founding a cooperative for the purpose of beach restoration seems like a more ethically sound goal, unless of course you have more information about the bird cleaners. The sad truth is that making the right choice often depends on information not readily available, and the lesson I take from this entire discussion is simply how important it is that humankind evolve more sophisticated ways of sharing large amounts of information efficiently particularly where economic decisions are concerned.
Are you favouring wireheading then? (See hyporational’s comment.) That is, finding it oppressively tedious that you can only get that feeling by actually going out and helping people, and wishing you could get it by a direct hit?
I think he wants to do things for which his brain whispers “this is altruistic” right now. It is true that wireheading would lead his brain to whisper that about everything. But from his current position, wireheading is not a benefit, because he values future events according to his current brain state, not his future brain state.
No, just as I eat sweets for sweet pleasure, not for getting sugar into my body, but I still wouldn’t wirehead into constantly feeling sweetness in my mouth.
Funny thing. I started out expanding this, trying to explain it as thoroughly as possible, and, all of a sudden, it became confusing to me. I guess, it was not a well thought out or consistent position to begin with. Thank you for a random rationality lesson, but you are not getting this idea expanded, alas.
Assuming his case is similar to mine: the altruism-sense favours wireheading—it just wants to be satisfied—while other moral intuitions say wireheading is wrong. When I imagine wireheading (like timujin imagines having a constant taste of sweetness in his mouth), I imagine still having that part of the brain which screams “THIS IS FAKE, YOU GOTTA WAKE UP, NEO”. And that part wouldn’t shut up unless I actually believed I was out (or it’s shut off, naturally).
When modeling myself as sub-agents, then in my case at least the anti-wireheading and pro-altruism parts appear to be independent agents by default: “I want to help people/be a good person” and “I want it to actually be real” are separate urges. What the OP seems to be appealing to is a system which says “I want to actually help people” in one go—sympathy, perhaps, as opposed to satisfying your altruism self-image.
What is the difference between an altruistic high and caring about other people? Isn’t the former what the latter feels like?
If there’s no difference we arrive at the general problem of wireheading. I suspect very few people who identify themselves as altruists would choose being wireheaded for altruistic high. What are the parameters that would keep them from doing so?
If there’s no difference we arrive at the general problem of wireheading.
Yes. Let me change my question. If (absent imaginary interventions with electrodes or drugs that don’t currently exist) an altruistic high is, literally, what it feels like when you care about others and act to help them, then saying “I don’t care about them, I just wanted the high” is like saying “I don’t enjoy sex, I just do it for the pleasure”, or “A stubbed toe doesn’t hurt, it just gives me a jolt of pain.” In short, reductionism gone wrong, angst at contemplating the physicality of mind.
It seems to me you can care about having sex without having the pleasure as well as care about not stubbing your toe without the pain. Caring about helping other people without the altruistic high? No problem.
It’s not clear to me where the physicality of mind or reductionism gone wrong enter the picture, not to mention angst. Oversimplification is aesthetics gone wrong.
ETA: I suppose it would be appropriately generous to assume that you meant altruistic high as one of the many mind states that caring feels like, but in many instances caring in the sense that I’m motivated to do something doesn’t seem to feel like anything at all. Perhaps there’s plenty of automation involved and only novel stimuli initiate noticeable perturbations. It would be an easy mistake to only count the instances where caring feels like something, which I think happened in timujin’s case. It would also be a mistake to think you only actually care about something when it doesn’t feel like anything.
It seems to me you can care about having sex without having the pleasure as well as care about not stubbing your toe without the pain. Caring about helping other people without the altruistic high? No problem.
I was addressing timujin’s original comment, where he professed to desiring the altruistic high while being indifferent to other people, which on the face of it is paradoxical. Perhaps, I speculate, noticing that the feeling is a thing distinct from what the feeling is about has led him to interpret this as discovering that he doesn’t care about the latter.
Or, it also occurs to me, perhaps he is experiencing the physical feeling without the connection to action, as when people taking morphine report that they still feel the pain, but it no longer hurts.
What is the difference between an altruistic high and caring about other people? Isn’t the former what the latter feels like?
The difference is that there are many actions that help other people but don’t give an appropriate altruistic high (because your brain doesn’t see or relate to those people much) and there are actions that produce a net zero or net negative effect but do produce an altruistic high.
The built-in care-o-meter of your body has known faults and biases, and it measures something often related (at least in classic hunter-gatherer society model) but generally different from actually caring about other people.
I came to the conclusion that I needed more quantitative data about the ecosystem. Sure birds covered in oil look sad, but would a massive loss of biodiversity on THIS beach effect the entire ecosystem? The real question I had in this thought experiment was “how should I prevent this from happening in the future?” Perhaps nationalizing oil drilling platforms would allow governments to better regulate the potentially hazardous practice. There is a game going on whereby some players are motivated by the profit incentive and others are motivated by genuine altruism, but it doesn’t take place on the beach. I certainly never owned an oil rig, and couldn’t really competently discuss the problems associated with actual large high pressure systems. Does anyone here know if oil spills are an unavoidable consequence of the best long term strategy for human development? That might be important to an informed decision on how much value to place on the cost of the accident, which would inform my decision about how much of my resources I should devote to cleaning the birds.
From another perspective, its a lot easier to quantify the cost for some outcomes … This makes it genuinely difficult to define genuinely altruistic strategies for entities experiencing scope insensitivity. And along that line giving away money because of scope insensitivity IS amoral. It differs judgement to a poorly defined entity which might manage our funds well or deplorably. Founding a cooperative for the purpose of beach restoration seems like a more ethically sound goal, unless of course you have more information about the bird cleaners. The sad truth is that making the right choice often depends on information not readily available, and the lesson I take from this entire discussion is simply how important it is that humankind evolve more sophisticated ways of sharing large amounts of information efficiently particularly where economic decisions are concerned.
Because I wouldn’t actually care if my actions actually help, as long as my brain thinks they do.
Are you favouring wireheading then? (See hyporational’s comment.) That is, finding it oppressively tedious that you can only get that feeling by actually going out and helping people, and wishing you could get it by a direct hit?
I think he wants to do things for which his brain whispers “this is altruistic” right now. It is true that wireheading would lead his brain to whisper that about everything. But from his current position, wireheading is not a benefit, because he values future events according to his current brain state, not his future brain state.
No, just as I eat sweets for sweet pleasure, not for getting sugar into my body, but I still wouldn’t wirehead into constantly feeling sweetness in my mouth.
I find this a confusing position. Please expand
Funny thing. I started out expanding this, trying to explain it as thoroughly as possible, and, all of a sudden, it became confusing to me. I guess, it was not a well thought out or consistent position to begin with. Thank you for a random rationality lesson, but you are not getting this idea expanded, alas.
Assuming his case is similar to mine: the altruism-sense favours wireheading—it just wants to be satisfied—while other moral intuitions say wireheading is wrong. When I imagine wireheading (like timujin imagines having a constant taste of sweetness in his mouth), I imagine still having that part of the brain which screams “THIS IS FAKE, YOU GOTTA WAKE UP, NEO”. And that part wouldn’t shut up unless I actually believed I was out (or it’s shut off, naturally).
When modeling myself as sub-agents, then in my case at least the anti-wireheading and pro-altruism parts appear to be independent agents by default: “I want to help people/be a good person” and “I want it to actually be real” are separate urges. What the OP seems to be appealing to is a system which says “I want to actually help people” in one go—sympathy, perhaps, as opposed to satisfying your altruism self-image.
If there’s no difference we arrive at the general problem of wireheading. I suspect very few people who identify themselves as altruists would choose being wireheaded for altruistic high. What are the parameters that would keep them from doing so?
Yes. Let me change my question. If (absent imaginary interventions with electrodes or drugs that don’t currently exist) an altruistic high is, literally, what it feels like when you care about others and act to help them, then saying “I don’t care about them, I just wanted the high” is like saying “I don’t enjoy sex, I just do it for the pleasure”, or “A stubbed toe doesn’t hurt, it just gives me a jolt of pain.” In short, reductionism gone wrong, angst at contemplating the physicality of mind.
It seems to me you can care about having sex without having the pleasure as well as care about not stubbing your toe without the pain. Caring about helping other people without the altruistic high? No problem.
It’s not clear to me where the physicality of mind or reductionism gone wrong enter the picture, not to mention angst. Oversimplification is aesthetics gone wrong.
ETA: I suppose it would be appropriately generous to assume that you meant altruistic high as one of the many mind states that caring feels like, but in many instances caring in the sense that I’m motivated to do something doesn’t seem to feel like anything at all. Perhaps there’s plenty of automation involved and only novel stimuli initiate noticeable perturbations. It would be an easy mistake to only count the instances where caring feels like something, which I think happened in timujin’s case. It would also be a mistake to think you only actually care about something when it doesn’t feel like anything.
I was addressing timujin’s original comment, where he professed to desiring the altruistic high while being indifferent to other people, which on the face of it is paradoxical. Perhaps, I speculate, noticing that the feeling is a thing distinct from what the feeling is about has led him to interpret this as discovering that he doesn’t care about the latter.
Or, it also occurs to me, perhaps he is experiencing the physical feeling without the connection to action, as when people taking morphine report that they still feel the pain, but it no longer hurts.
Brains can go wrong in all sorts of ways.