I think I’ve heard this phrase somewhere before. Would a ‘womanly understanding’ be the female counterpart of a ‘gentleman’s agreement’? “We had a womanly understanding not to dress too fancily to the event, and I was glad to see that she wore her hemp necklace instead of her most elegant pearl necklace.”
A ‘tacit understanding’ or ‘tacit agreement’ can be the gender neutral in many instances wherein ‘gentleman’s agreement’ is used, but indeed I don’t think the former can denote all that the latter connotes.
Would a ‘womanly understanding’ be the female counterpart of a ‘gentleman’s agreement’?
No. The the ‘nice connotations’ of that phrase are that the agreement can be expected to be kept not because of legal enforceability but due to honor and pride. That is, the ‘gentleman’ who betrays such an agreement will at best lose social standing (itself a life threatening possibility) and at worst will be challenged to a duel or have his entire family poisoned by assassins.
The ‘gentleman’ who is betrayed in such a deal feels honor bound to punish the defection even at cost to himself and will himself lose status and credibility if he does not. The “womanly counterpart” for social competition was based on different competitive strategies and was not of the kind that implicitly enforces honesty.
Perhaps in fiction and history does what you say of female competition hold true, but I think it might not anymore be so much the case in Western countries. Western countries in the past subjugated women a great deal more than at present, and thus subtle machinations were female’s only recourse if they wished to be active agents.
As Western Society weakens its dominion over women, and women are granted more social power, the less necessary manipulative dishonest conduct in female to female interactions becomes. I don’t think it’s inherent to the nature of women to engage in arrangements that they have no intention of upholding—only that doing so is advantageous when all involved parties of the arrangement have low social power anyway: little to lose, a lot to gain. Men in the same situations are just as dishonest.
With more social power, the less reason there is back-stab and connive dishonestly. I think it very likely for women to have developed a reputation-backed honor system that enforces ‘womanly understandings’. That is what I mean by the term: a relatively new social development that has only become possible through recent societal Enlightenment (in the 17th-18th century sense of the word). It could just as well be a very old development that has only recently been revitalized; I refer to ancient matriarchal societies like the Scythians and Sarmatians.
Perhaps in fiction and history does what you say of female competition hold true, but I think it might not anymore be so much the case in Western countries. Western countries in the past subjugated women a great deal more than at present, and thus subtle machinations were female’s only recourse if they wished to be active agents.
Trying to make this about ‘female subjugation’ does the subject a gross injustice—discarding all the relevant parts of the particular honesty enforcement cultural dynamic in order to make points on a largely irrelevant gender superiority battle. The actual relevant factor here is that what I said of male competition does not apply in modern societies. People within a specific caste being permitted to or outright socially obliged to challenge each other to duels or to otherwise act in an aggressively vindictive manner when they are betrayed in matters of honor has various positive and negative effects, one of them being that otherwise unenforceable promises have more credibility. Neither males nor females in general western culture are in such circumstances so our ‘gentleman’s agreements’ are limited to comparatively trivial matters.
Having both set forth our positions, we can only wait for relevant facts to resolve the matter one way or the other.
This form of disengagement does not seem to apply in circumstances where there are no particular ‘facts of the matter’ that are being waited for and no ‘resolution of the matter’ that would provide clear conclusions either way. That being the case it struck me as out of place posturing.
This form of disengagement does not seem to apply in circumstances where there are no particular ‘facts of the matter’ that are being waited for and no ‘resolution of the matter’ that would provide clear conclusions either way. That being the case it struck me as out of place posturing.
You’re right. I was thinking of anecdotes, which aren’t facts, and shouldn’t be used as highly-valued evidence in most scenarios, like this one. Regardless, it was still posturing; thanks for calling me out on it.
My main point wasn’t about power imbalances, but the social dynamics influenced by those imbalances. Honor among gentlemen in 17th century England was only important insofar as a man’s reputation. Thus, outside of those who may be internally motivated by an honorable system of ethics (like Eddard Stark), reputation was the main factor responsible for enforcing gentlemanly honor. I posit that repuation matters more among those that have a lot to lose, but little to gain: exempli gratia an established criminal or the Earl of Essex.
If one has little reputation to begin with, and is of little means, then it is advantageous to connive one’s way into more power. As winning glory and honor for their family through battle or refined arts has in the past been largely outside the realm of accepted female activity, conniving was naturally a reasonable course of action. The same would be true of a London mudlark with grand ambitions—regardless of their sex.
In our day, honorable conduct in business is critical as often one’s reputation will be the deciding factor in whether another will enter into a business arrangement. This is much moreso the case among starting professionals, who might take it as a sign of distrust and be affronted if presented with NDA’s and non-compete forms before even hearing the proposal.
Positive reputation is largely built up by acting ‘honorably’. I think this is equally the case among women now as it is among men. Thus, agreements made and understandings reached that are founded upon that honor might be called gentleman’s agreements and womanly understandings.
To clarify, the above is why I think using a term such as ‘womanly understanding’ is sound, and why I think the term represents occurences that have basis in reality. I just want to know whether anyone’s heard of it before. Also, yes, I know you were initially referring to past cultural dynamics—sorry I didn’t make that clearer earlier.
Perhaps this says more about me than other people, but when you wrote ‘womanly understanding’, I expected it to immediately be broken in some sort of backstabbing way or catfight...
And a gentleman’s agreement would be broken and “resolved” through the gentlemanly art of fisticuffs — in other words, it really hinges on mutual threat of violence rather than on mutual recognition of benefit?
How about we don’t gender it at all? If what you want to say is that a particular agreement optimizes for mutual benefit and against various sorts of defection, just say so. We know some game theory around here; and we know that it is frequently applicable to the moral decisions of daily life. No need to drag (ha ha) gender into it at all.
And a gentleman’s agreement would be broken and “resolved” through the gentlemanly art of fisticuffs — in other words, it really hinges on mutual threat of violence rather than on mutual recognition of benefit?
No. The agreement is based on the mutual recognition of benefit. The expectation that each will honor the agreement if made relies on the threat of mutual violence. If there wasn’t an expectation of benefit they would not enter into an agreement. (The agreement obliges them to either do something or experience negative consequences so if the agreement offered no expectation of benefit to compensate it would be a bad decision.)
A ‘tacit understanding’ or ‘tacit agreement’ can be the gender neutral in many instances wherein ‘gentleman’s agreement’ is used, but indeed I don’t think the former can denote all that the latter connotes.
But what do you think it connotes? The meaning of “gentleman’s agreement” that I grew up with is a tacit agreement of mutual back-scratching, generally to the detriment of those outside the club of insiders. It is not publicly enforceable because it is not publicly acknowledgable, but those on the inside will know when someone defects and discreetly edge them out of the club. It is not to do with honour and pride, in the hurrah senses of those words, but the old boys network.
The Wikipedia article on the subject defines it pretty much along those lines, and gives some historical background I wasn’t aware of.
How would you summarize the difference between the connotations of “gentlemanly” and “civilized”?
“Civilized” people aren’t allowed to stab you if you break your promises to them.
I think I’ve heard this phrase somewhere before. Would a ‘womanly understanding’ be the female counterpart of a ‘gentleman’s agreement’? “We had a womanly understanding not to dress too fancily to the event, and I was glad to see that she wore her hemp necklace instead of her most elegant pearl necklace.”
A ‘tacit understanding’ or ‘tacit agreement’ can be the gender neutral in many instances wherein ‘gentleman’s agreement’ is used, but indeed I don’t think the former can denote all that the latter connotes.
No. The the ‘nice connotations’ of that phrase are that the agreement can be expected to be kept not because of legal enforceability but due to honor and pride. That is, the ‘gentleman’ who betrays such an agreement will at best lose social standing (itself a life threatening possibility) and at worst will be challenged to a duel or have his entire family poisoned by assassins.
The ‘gentleman’ who is betrayed in such a deal feels honor bound to punish the defection even at cost to himself and will himself lose status and credibility if he does not. The “womanly counterpart” for social competition was based on different competitive strategies and was not of the kind that implicitly enforces honesty.
Perhaps in fiction and history does what you say of female competition hold true, but I think it might not anymore be so much the case in Western countries. Western countries in the past subjugated women a great deal more than at present, and thus subtle machinations were female’s only recourse if they wished to be active agents.
As Western Society weakens its dominion over women, and women are granted more social power, the less necessary manipulative dishonest conduct in female to female interactions becomes. I don’t think it’s inherent to the nature of women to engage in arrangements that they have no intention of upholding—only that doing so is advantageous when all involved parties of the arrangement have low social power anyway: little to lose, a lot to gain. Men in the same situations are just as dishonest.
With more social power, the less reason there is back-stab and connive dishonestly. I think it very likely for women to have developed a reputation-backed honor system that enforces ‘womanly understandings’. That is what I mean by the term: a relatively new social development that has only become possible through recent societal Enlightenment (in the 17th-18th century sense of the word). It could just as well be a very old development that has only recently been revitalized; I refer to ancient matriarchal societies like the Scythians and Sarmatians.
Trying to make this about ‘female subjugation’ does the subject a gross injustice—discarding all the relevant parts of the particular honesty enforcement cultural dynamic in order to make points on a largely irrelevant gender superiority battle. The actual relevant factor here is that what I said of male competition does not apply in modern societies. People within a specific caste being permitted to or outright socially obliged to challenge each other to duels or to otherwise act in an aggressively vindictive manner when they are betrayed in matters of honor has various positive and negative effects, one of them being that otherwise unenforceable promises have more credibility. Neither males nor females in general western culture are in such circumstances so our ‘gentleman’s agreements’ are limited to comparatively trivial matters.
This form of disengagement does not seem to apply in circumstances where there are no particular ‘facts of the matter’ that are being waited for and no ‘resolution of the matter’ that would provide clear conclusions either way. That being the case it struck me as out of place posturing.
You’re right. I was thinking of anecdotes, which aren’t facts, and shouldn’t be used as highly-valued evidence in most scenarios, like this one. Regardless, it was still posturing; thanks for calling me out on it.
My main point wasn’t about power imbalances, but the social dynamics influenced by those imbalances. Honor among gentlemen in 17th century England was only important insofar as a man’s reputation. Thus, outside of those who may be internally motivated by an honorable system of ethics (like Eddard Stark), reputation was the main factor responsible for enforcing gentlemanly honor. I posit that repuation matters more among those that have a lot to lose, but little to gain: exempli gratia an established criminal or the Earl of Essex.
If one has little reputation to begin with, and is of little means, then it is advantageous to connive one’s way into more power. As winning glory and honor for their family through battle or refined arts has in the past been largely outside the realm of accepted female activity, conniving was naturally a reasonable course of action. The same would be true of a London mudlark with grand ambitions—regardless of their sex.
In our day, honorable conduct in business is critical as often one’s reputation will be the deciding factor in whether another will enter into a business arrangement. This is much moreso the case among starting professionals, who might take it as a sign of distrust and be affronted if presented with NDA’s and non-compete forms before even hearing the proposal.
Positive reputation is largely built up by acting ‘honorably’. I think this is equally the case among women now as it is among men. Thus, agreements made and understandings reached that are founded upon that honor might be called gentleman’s agreements and womanly understandings.
To clarify, the above is why I think using a term such as ‘womanly understanding’ is sound, and why I think the term represents occurences that have basis in reality. I just want to know whether anyone’s heard of it before. Also, yes, I know you were initially referring to past cultural dynamics—sorry I didn’t make that clearer earlier.
Perhaps this says more about me than other people, but when you wrote ‘womanly understanding’, I expected it to immediately be broken in some sort of backstabbing way or catfight...
And a gentleman’s agreement would be broken and “resolved” through the gentlemanly art of fisticuffs — in other words, it really hinges on mutual threat of violence rather than on mutual recognition of benefit?
How about we don’t gender it at all? If what you want to say is that a particular agreement optimizes for mutual benefit and against various sorts of defection, just say so. We know some game theory around here; and we know that it is frequently applicable to the moral decisions of daily life. No need to drag (ha ha) gender into it at all.
No. The agreement is based on the mutual recognition of benefit. The expectation that each will honor the agreement if made relies on the threat of mutual violence. If there wasn’t an expectation of benefit they would not enter into an agreement. (The agreement obliges them to either do something or experience negative consequences so if the agreement offered no expectation of benefit to compensate it would be a bad decision.)
I did not, and didn’t realize that example was a cliche. I changed the example to be contrary to that expectation.
But what do you think it connotes? The meaning of “gentleman’s agreement” that I grew up with is a tacit agreement of mutual back-scratching, generally to the detriment of those outside the club of insiders. It is not publicly enforceable because it is not publicly acknowledgable, but those on the inside will know when someone defects and discreetly edge them out of the club. It is not to do with honour and pride, in the hurrah senses of those words, but the old boys network.
The Wikipedia article on the subject defines it pretty much along those lines, and gives some historical background I wasn’t aware of.