Could we have generated more marginal value with the same resources?
Absolutely. But lets be clear that for all their faults these status games account for nearly all the value that society creates for itself. In fact, since group selection does not imply in the case of humans these games are the very foundation of civilization itself. I hate status games… but I refuse to let myself fall into that all to common ‘nerd’ failure mode. Rationalization from bitterness from and contempt for status games that just don’t seem to matter to us as much as to others to the conclusion that they have no value.
Altruists, worth the name, that enter business would have to make sure they were part of the consumerist system that generated value rather than part that detracted from the value other people generated. That would constrain their money making ability.
Only in the “No True Scotsman” sense of ‘worth the name’. Altruists push fat men in front of Trolleys. Altruism is not nice. That is just the naive do-gooderism that we read in fantasy and Sci. Fi. stories.
Altruists need not artificially constrain themselves unless the detriment from making money is sufficiently bad that the earnings can not be spent to generate a net benefit to their society (as they personally evaluate benefit). Ways to make money that fit such category are extremely hard to find. For example earnings activities up to and including theft and assassination can be used to easily give a net altruistic benefit. In fact, the marginal value of adding additional zero or negative sum players to the economy is usually fairly small. You just make the market in ‘evil’ slightly more efficient.
You don’t need to, and I know I myself don’t. (My ethical unease is based on my ersonal ethics, mind you). What I responded to was the general claim about “altruists worth the name”. In the previous response I similarly responded to your rationalization, not the conclusion that you were rationalizing. I am comfortable disagreeing on matters of fact but don’t usually see much use in responding to other people’s personal preferences.
1) There is working at something you dislike for a greater good (as long as you are very very sure that it will be a net positive. All the talks of cognitive deficits of humans do not inspire confidence in my own decision making abilities)
2) Improving society through being involved in the consumerist economy as it is a net positive force in itself.
My comment about “worth the name” was mainly about 2 and ignoring 1 for the moment, as I had already conceded it in my initial comment.
2) Improving society through being involved in the consumerist economy as it is a net positive force in itself.
My comment about “worth the name” was mainly about 2
Then on this we are naturally in agreement. No sane altruist (where sane includes ’able to adequately research the influence of important decisions) will do things that have a net detriment and there are certainly going to be some activities that fit this category.
I would add another category that specifically refers to doing things that are directly bad so that it allows you to do other things that are good.
Absolutely. But lets be clear that for all their faults these status games account for nearly all the value that society creates for itself. In fact, since group selection does not imply in the case of humans these games are the very foundation of civilization itself. I hate status games… but I refuse to let myself fall into that all to common ‘nerd’ failure mode. Rationalization from bitterness from and contempt for status games that just don’t seem to matter to us as much as to others to the conclusion that they have no value.
Only in the “No True Scotsman” sense of ‘worth the name’. Altruists push fat men in front of Trolleys. Altruism is not nice. That is just the naive do-gooderism that we read in fantasy and Sci. Fi. stories.
Altruists need not artificially constrain themselves unless the detriment from making money is sufficiently bad that the earnings can not be spent to generate a net benefit to their society (as they personally evaluate benefit). Ways to make money that fit such category are extremely hard to find. For example earnings activities up to and including theft and assassination can be used to easily give a net altruistic benefit. In fact, the marginal value of adding additional zero or negative sum players to the economy is usually fairly small. You just make the market in ‘evil’ slightly more efficient.
I won’t just ignore all ethical unease.
You don’t need to, and I know I myself don’t. (My ethical unease is based on my ersonal ethics, mind you). What I responded to was the general claim about “altruists worth the name”. In the previous response I similarly responded to your rationalization, not the conclusion that you were rationalizing. I am comfortable disagreeing on matters of fact but don’t usually see much use in responding to other people’s personal preferences.
We are talking at cross purposes somewhat.
There are two points.
1) There is working at something you dislike for a greater good (as long as you are very very sure that it will be a net positive. All the talks of cognitive deficits of humans do not inspire confidence in my own decision making abilities)
2) Improving society through being involved in the consumerist economy as it is a net positive force in itself.
My comment about “worth the name” was mainly about 2 and ignoring 1 for the moment, as I had already conceded it in my initial comment.
Then on this we are naturally in agreement. No sane altruist (where sane includes ’able to adequately research the influence of important decisions) will do things that have a net detriment and there are certainly going to be some activities that fit this category.
I would add another category that specifically refers to doing things that are directly bad so that it allows you to do other things that are good.