you can just have the System 1 experience and then do the System 2 processing afterwards (which could be seconds afterwards). It’s really not that hard. I believe that most rationalists can handle it, and I certainly believe that I can handle it.
It is probably true that most rationalists could handle it. It is also probably true, however, that people who can’t handle it could end up profoundly worse for the experience. I am not sure we should endorse potential epistemic hazards with so little certainty about both costs and benefits. I also grant that anything is a potential epistemic hazard and that reasoning under uncertainty is kind of why we bother with this site in the first place. This is all to say that I would like to see more evidence of this calculation being done at all, and that if I was not so geographically separated from the LWsphere, I would like to try these experiences myself.
There’s no substitute for personal experience in many skills, especially those involving the body, and in fact I think this should be your prior. It may not feel like this is the prior but I think this is straight up a mistake; I’d guess that people’s experiences with learning skills here are skewed by 1) school, which heavily skews towards skills that can be learned through text, and 2) the selection effect of being LWers, liking the Sequences, etc.
I am not sure that it should be the prior for mental skills however. As you pointed out, scholastic skills are almost exclusively (and almost definitionally) attainable through text. I know that I can and have learned math, history, languages, etc., through reading, and it seems like that is the correct category for Looking, etc., as well (unless I am mistaken about the basic nature of Looking, which is certainly possible).
So I’m just not going to talk about A. And given that, the least painful way for me to maintain consistency is to not talk about any of the weaker variants either.
This is a sad circumstance, I wish it were otherwise, and I understand why you have made the choice you have considering the (rather ironically) immediate and visceral response you are used to receiving.
I am not sure we should endorse potential epistemic hazards with so little certainty about both costs and benefits.
I’m not sure what “endorse” means here. My position is certainly not “everyone should definitely do [circling, meditation, etc.]”; mostly what I have been arguing for is “we should not punish people who try or say good things about [circling, meditation, etc.] for being epistemically reckless, or allege that they’re evil and manipulative solely on that basis, because I think there are important potential benefits worth the potential risks for some people.”
I am not sure that it should be the prior for mental skills however. As you pointed out, scholastic skills are almost exclusively (and almost definitionally) attainable through text. I know that I can and have learned math, history, languages, etc., through reading, and it seems like that is the correct category for Looking, etc., as well (unless I am mistaken about the basic nature of Looking, which is certainly possible).
I still think you’re over-updating on school. For example, why do graduate students have advisors? At least in fields like pure mathematics that don’t involve lab work, it’s plausibly because being a researcher in these fields requires important mental skills that can’t just be learned through reading, but need to be absorbed through periodic contact with the advisor. Great advisors often have great students; clearly something important is being transmitted even if it’s hard to write down what.
My understanding of CFAR’s position is also that whatever mental skills it tries to teach, those skills are much harder to teach via text or even video than via an in-person workshop, and that this is why we focus so heavily on workshops instead of methods of teaching that scale better.
and I understand why you have made the choice you have considering the (rather ironically) immediate and visceral response you are used to receiving.
I know, right? Also ironically, learning how to not be subject to my triggers (at least, not as much as I was before) is another skill I got from circling.
It is probably true that most rationalists could handle it. It is also probably true, however, that people who can’t handle it could end up profoundly worse for the experience. I am not sure we should endorse potential epistemic hazards with so little certainty about both costs and benefits. I also grant that anything is a potential epistemic hazard and that reasoning under uncertainty is kind of why we bother with this site in the first place. This is all to say that I would like to see more evidence of this calculation being done at all, and that if I was not so geographically separated from the LWsphere, I would like to try these experiences myself.
I am not sure that it should be the prior for mental skills however. As you pointed out, scholastic skills are almost exclusively (and almost definitionally) attainable through text. I know that I can and have learned math, history, languages, etc., through reading, and it seems like that is the correct category for Looking, etc., as well (unless I am mistaken about the basic nature of Looking, which is certainly possible).
This is a sad circumstance, I wish it were otherwise, and I understand why you have made the choice you have considering the (rather ironically) immediate and visceral response you are used to receiving.
I’m not sure what “endorse” means here. My position is certainly not “everyone should definitely do [circling, meditation, etc.]”; mostly what I have been arguing for is “we should not punish people who try or say good things about [circling, meditation, etc.] for being epistemically reckless, or allege that they’re evil and manipulative solely on that basis, because I think there are important potential benefits worth the potential risks for some people.”
I still think you’re over-updating on school. For example, why do graduate students have advisors? At least in fields like pure mathematics that don’t involve lab work, it’s plausibly because being a researcher in these fields requires important mental skills that can’t just be learned through reading, but need to be absorbed through periodic contact with the advisor. Great advisors often have great students; clearly something important is being transmitted even if it’s hard to write down what.
My understanding of CFAR’s position is also that whatever mental skills it tries to teach, those skills are much harder to teach via text or even video than via an in-person workshop, and that this is why we focus so heavily on workshops instead of methods of teaching that scale better.
I know, right? Also ironically, learning how to not be subject to my triggers (at least, not as much as I was before) is another skill I got from circling.