Well given that I don’t know what you’ve actually tried its hard to say if I think you’ve exausted your options (though it sounds like this sort of think might be best served by professional therapy). But sure, if the situations is really that bleak (assuming you have outside confirmation of this) then yeah give it up. Work on something else. Does your psychological discomfort come with any risk? Or just when particular kinds of things are at risk?
Relatedly, has anyone thought about the relationship between rationality and psychotherapy? It just occurred to me that there might be a lot there.
Relatedly, has anyone thought about the relationship between rationality and psychotherapy? It just occurred to me that there might be a lot there.
Huh? You mean, like, psychotherapists are unusually irrational people? Or maybe that no rationalist would give any significant credence to any of the clinical psychology theory? Or maybe that a good rationalist will rarely need psychotherapy because their deduction skills are much better than most therapists? Please explain.
To be less snide, I find it quite unlikely that therapy would help PI significantly. (Of course, I know little of his/her specific circumstances.) I think a more fruitful course of action, if PI does want to overcome the problem*, would be to keep trying to overcome it directly, and meanwhile continue to form new free relationships with a variety of trusted people and see if they can help at all by providing insight or emotional support. Social networks are better than yellow book pages at finding people with relevant insights. And good friends are better than good therapists at emotional support.
It is possible that therapy isn’t usually cost effective but I don’t know of any study which suggests the therapist market is uniquely distorted. People pay a lot of money for a good therapists and therapists build their practice by way of references. I don’t think I have to endorse Freudian psychoanalysis in order to think that talking to an experienced stranger about your problems might be helpful in ways that talking to friends wouldn’t be. I don’t know the details of peer’s problem (and sorry peer, for hijacking this) but his risk aversion might extend to fear of losing social capital and being embarassed. If thats the case telling him to go make more friends and tell them about his problems seems to miss the point.
What I meant by a relationship between rationality and psychotherapy is that therapy often involves getting people to be happier by having them behave more rationally. It seems to me that that some of the methods and ideas discussed and used here could bear on therapeutic practice. Frankly, better than talking to friends for free (therapy from people you have other relationships is always going to be more complicated since there are all sorts of signaling and status issues that will get in the way of an honest dialog) would be talking to rationalist strangers for free. I imagine the Bayesian cult leaders of Eliezer’s fiction could charge a nice fee for talking to people and helping them make life decisions free from bias and overcome akrasia. We’ve all recognized that a lot of the material that gets discussed here looks like less useless self-help. To me, that means that this material might also be less useless other-help.
I sort of doubt it- but it would be great if to know if there are any practicing therapists or social workers that read less wrong.
but his risk aversion might extend to fear of losing social capital and being embarassed. If thats the case telling him to go make more friends and tell them about his problems seems to miss the point.
Certainly. I didn’t get the impression that that was the case from his comment, but perhaps it is.
therapy often involves getting people to be happier by having them behave more rationally.
My main beef with therapy is that it’s ineffective at this. (Not in all cases, but more likely in the case of LW members.) It’s certainly a noble goal.
I don’t think I have to endorse Freudian psychoanalysis in order to think that talking to an experienced stranger about your problems might be helpful in ways that talking to friends wouldn’t be.
I think you’re saying here that you don’t have to endorse any particular methodology in order to think etc. I agree with the conditional, but I somewhat disagree with the consequent.
My main beef with therapy is that it’s ineffective at this. (Not in all cases, but more likely in the case of LW members.) It’s certainly a noble goal.
I more or less agree with this. I was smarter than my therapist too but it was still helpful for three reasons. First, it forced me to recite my motives, reasons and feelings out loud which made me more conscious of them so that I could actually analyze and evaluate them. Second, the questions she asked prompted new thoughts that I wouldn’t have had. Even if the premise of her questions was silly (she wasn’t a Freudian but had a tendency to bring up my mother at inopportune times) it still brought forth helpful thoughts. Third, while she was behind me in IQ she had enough experience and knowledge of patterns of behavior to call me on my bullshit. In my experience (and as I understand it, in studies) intelligent people are especially good at rationalizing away behavior and channeling emotional reactions in weird, unhelpful directions.
Anyway thats what I got out of it. Eventually I think I reached a point of diminishing returns on it (once I could recognize patterns in my behavior paying money to have someone else do it did seem useless). I still have a problem of putting my conclusions about my own unhealthy, irrational behavior to good use, but that doesn’t seem like the kind of thing anyone will be able to help me with.
You’re definitely right that therapy is overall too ineffective- which is why I think it could benefit from the insights of this site. I actually think I could get a fair amount out of therapy with an extreme rationalist- and reading your blog it seems like your problem with therapists is that they’re not enough like your average less wrong poster.
Hmm. Maybe I was born unusually introspective, because my therapists never deepened my analysis or called me on bullshit. My experience may be more atypical than I thought.
In my experience (and as I understand it, in studies) intelligent people are especially good at rationalizing away behavior and channeling emotional reactions in weird, unhelpful directions.
I haven’t heard of those studies. I’d be interested in any references you have. I’m familiar with the correlation between intelligence and kookiness, but this sounds a bit different, though probably related.
your problem with therapists is that they’re not enough like your average less wrong poster.
Heh. Well, sort of. That and, maybe, that I’m just not cut out for therapy.
This doesn’t look like a hijack to me. I haven’t suggested therapy to Peer, probably because I’m pretty strongly biased against doing so, but now that I think about it, it may be useful to at least consider it.
Well given that I don’t know what you’ve actually tried its hard to say if I think you’ve exausted your options (though it sounds like this sort of think might be best served by professional therapy). But sure, if the situations is really that bleak (assuming you have outside confirmation of this) then yeah give it up. Work on something else. Does your psychological discomfort come with any risk? Or just when particular kinds of things are at risk?
Relatedly, has anyone thought about the relationship between rationality and psychotherapy? It just occurred to me that there might be a lot there.
It puts the ‘R’ in REBT.
Huh? You mean, like, psychotherapists are unusually irrational people? Or maybe that no rationalist would give any significant credence to any of the clinical psychology theory? Or maybe that a good rationalist will rarely need psychotherapy because their deduction skills are much better than most therapists? Please explain.
To be less snide, I find it quite unlikely that therapy would help PI significantly. (Of course, I know little of his/her specific circumstances.) I think a more fruitful course of action, if PI does want to overcome the problem*, would be to keep trying to overcome it directly, and meanwhile continue to form new free relationships with a variety of trusted people and see if they can help at all by providing insight or emotional support. Social networks are better than yellow book pages at finding people with relevant insights. And good friends are better than good therapists at emotional support.
* Which isn’t to say that PI should keep trying.
It is possible that therapy isn’t usually cost effective but I don’t know of any study which suggests the therapist market is uniquely distorted. People pay a lot of money for a good therapists and therapists build their practice by way of references. I don’t think I have to endorse Freudian psychoanalysis in order to think that talking to an experienced stranger about your problems might be helpful in ways that talking to friends wouldn’t be. I don’t know the details of peer’s problem (and sorry peer, for hijacking this) but his risk aversion might extend to fear of losing social capital and being embarassed. If thats the case telling him to go make more friends and tell them about his problems seems to miss the point.
What I meant by a relationship between rationality and psychotherapy is that therapy often involves getting people to be happier by having them behave more rationally. It seems to me that that some of the methods and ideas discussed and used here could bear on therapeutic practice. Frankly, better than talking to friends for free (therapy from people you have other relationships is always going to be more complicated since there are all sorts of signaling and status issues that will get in the way of an honest dialog) would be talking to rationalist strangers for free. I imagine the Bayesian cult leaders of Eliezer’s fiction could charge a nice fee for talking to people and helping them make life decisions free from bias and overcome akrasia. We’ve all recognized that a lot of the material that gets discussed here looks like less useless self-help. To me, that means that this material might also be less useless other-help.
I sort of doubt it- but it would be great if to know if there are any practicing therapists or social workers that read less wrong.
Certainly. I didn’t get the impression that that was the case from his comment, but perhaps it is.
My main beef with therapy is that it’s ineffective at this. (Not in all cases, but more likely in the case of LW members.) It’s certainly a noble goal.
I think you’re saying here that you don’t have to endorse any particular methodology in order to think etc. I agree with the conditional, but I somewhat disagree with the consequent.
I write about my personal experience with therapy on my blog, which certainly informs my writings here.
I more or less agree with this. I was smarter than my therapist too but it was still helpful for three reasons. First, it forced me to recite my motives, reasons and feelings out loud which made me more conscious of them so that I could actually analyze and evaluate them. Second, the questions she asked prompted new thoughts that I wouldn’t have had. Even if the premise of her questions was silly (she wasn’t a Freudian but had a tendency to bring up my mother at inopportune times) it still brought forth helpful thoughts. Third, while she was behind me in IQ she had enough experience and knowledge of patterns of behavior to call me on my bullshit. In my experience (and as I understand it, in studies) intelligent people are especially good at rationalizing away behavior and channeling emotional reactions in weird, unhelpful directions.
Anyway thats what I got out of it. Eventually I think I reached a point of diminishing returns on it (once I could recognize patterns in my behavior paying money to have someone else do it did seem useless). I still have a problem of putting my conclusions about my own unhealthy, irrational behavior to good use, but that doesn’t seem like the kind of thing anyone will be able to help me with.
You’re definitely right that therapy is overall too ineffective- which is why I think it could benefit from the insights of this site. I actually think I could get a fair amount out of therapy with an extreme rationalist- and reading your blog it seems like your problem with therapists is that they’re not enough like your average less wrong poster.
Hmm. Maybe I was born unusually introspective, because my therapists never deepened my analysis or called me on bullshit. My experience may be more atypical than I thought.
I haven’t heard of those studies. I’d be interested in any references you have. I’m familiar with the correlation between intelligence and kookiness, but this sounds a bit different, though probably related.
Heh. Well, sort of. That and, maybe, that I’m just not cut out for therapy.
This doesn’t look like a hijack to me. I haven’t suggested therapy to Peer, probably because I’m pretty strongly biased against doing so, but now that I think about it, it may be useful to at least consider it.
Carry on. :)