The Wikipedia article wasn’t all that helpful other than to give a better idea of what the term means.
There seem to be two major types of anti-realism—one seems to be the idea that nothing is objectively real, and the other that no matter how much indirect evidence we have we can never know what is objectively real.
The first position doesn’t seem to be useful for much of anything (to me, anyway), and the second seems to be pretty close to what “the map is not the territory” is all about, with the claim that the map well never be able to perfectly reflect the territory.
Since you like to argue about the map/territory, I can only assume you believe nothing is objectively real.
I can only assume you believe nothing is objectively real.
It would probably be more productive to assume that I have seen no evidence that anything is objectively real, and that I have noticed no particular advantage to forming a belief on the subject in the absence of evidence.
And since I don’t expect to see or hear any evidence on the question any time soon, I follow Occam’s advice and try to think of how I can live without that belief in the real existence of something called ‘territory’.
I think I understand you, but what I don’t understand is how the idea that our subjective observations do not have an objective cause is simpler than the idea that what we sense directly and measure indirectly is the objective cause.
I would think Occam’s razor would require you to assume there is an objective reality causing all of your indirect observations. Even if all of reality is just a figment of our imagination, or just a part of some simulator (to take an extreme position), doesn’t there need to be a cause of such figments, or a machine of some kind on which the simulation runs?
In other words, I could understand the position that our understanding of reality (our best maps, if you will) may be completely wrong, and I could even understand the position that the nature of reality may be impossible for us to discover, but it seems to me the fact of our existence is pretty significant evidence that some kind of objective reality exists, whether or not we have accurately mapped it. Furthermore, both positions seem far more complicated than the position that what we have seen and measured is reality. Both positions must explain all of our senses as well as having some larger thing that is an undiscoverable reality. Occam’s razor seems to say the simplest answer is that what we have sensed directly and measured indirectly is reality (though not necessarily the fundamental reality).
It does. But I think you are underestimating just how much complication a belief in an unknown (or not yet known) reality brings with it. And it is an unsupportable position to claim “that what we have seen and measured is reality”. Measurement is obviously theory-laden. Sense data is too, though the theories involved are in the field of psychology and the neurosciences.
it seems to me the fact of our existence is pretty significant evidence that some kind of objective reality exists
One thing I notice you doing that you may not notice yourself: you are using the words “objective” and “subjective” as a kind of praise or condemnation. And you seem to associate the adjective ‘objective’ with the noun ‘reality’ as if ‘reality’ has a natural right to that adjective. But I am taking the position here that the only ‘reality’ you have access to is a subjective one (or, at best, intersubjective).
I think we pretty much understand each other at this point. I’m not trying to convert anyone—just to open some minds. And I apologize for my “maps all the way down’ crack that started the conversation. It came across as trollish, and I regret that.
The Wikipedia article wasn’t all that helpful other than to give a better idea of what the term means.
There seem to be two major types of anti-realism—one seems to be the idea that nothing is objectively real, and the other that no matter how much indirect evidence we have we can never know what is objectively real.
The first position doesn’t seem to be useful for much of anything (to me, anyway), and the second seems to be pretty close to what “the map is not the territory” is all about, with the claim that the map well never be able to perfectly reflect the territory.
Since you like to argue about the map/territory, I can only assume you believe nothing is objectively real.
Am I misunderstanding you?
It would probably be more productive to assume that I have seen no evidence that anything is objectively real, and that I have noticed no particular advantage to forming a belief on the subject in the absence of evidence.
And since I don’t expect to see or hear any evidence on the question any time soon, I follow Occam’s advice and try to think of how I can live without that belief in the real existence of something called ‘territory’.
I think I understand you, but what I don’t understand is how the idea that our subjective observations do not have an objective cause is simpler than the idea that what we sense directly and measure indirectly is the objective cause.
I would think Occam’s razor would require you to assume there is an objective reality causing all of your indirect observations. Even if all of reality is just a figment of our imagination, or just a part of some simulator (to take an extreme position), doesn’t there need to be a cause of such figments, or a machine of some kind on which the simulation runs?
In other words, I could understand the position that our understanding of reality (our best maps, if you will) may be completely wrong, and I could even understand the position that the nature of reality may be impossible for us to discover, but it seems to me the fact of our existence is pretty significant evidence that some kind of objective reality exists, whether or not we have accurately mapped it. Furthermore, both positions seem far more complicated than the position that what we have seen and measured is reality. Both positions must explain all of our senses as well as having some larger thing that is an undiscoverable reality. Occam’s razor seems to say the simplest answer is that what we have sensed directly and measured indirectly is reality (though not necessarily the fundamental reality).
Does that make sense?
It does. But I think you are underestimating just how much complication a belief in an unknown (or not yet known) reality brings with it. And it is an unsupportable position to claim “that what we have seen and measured is reality”. Measurement is obviously theory-laden. Sense data is too, though the theories involved are in the field of psychology and the neurosciences.
One thing I notice you doing that you may not notice yourself: you are using the words “objective” and “subjective” as a kind of praise or condemnation. And you seem to associate the adjective ‘objective’ with the noun ‘reality’ as if ‘reality’ has a natural right to that adjective. But I am taking the position here that the only ‘reality’ you have access to is a subjective one (or, at best, intersubjective).
I think we pretty much understand each other at this point. I’m not trying to convert anyone—just to open some minds. And I apologize for my “maps all the way down’ crack that started the conversation. It came across as trollish, and I regret that.