A famously fat nobleman? LIke, that was the fat guy from the seventeenth century?
I’m not sure. My point was more than Galen knew about people so fat Jerry Springer would want to put them on his show today, and the heaviest guy you see at a sci-fi convention is comparable to the heaviest guy you would see in the Roman Senate.
I’d be way happier with “this is the percentage of monks that were obese in 1400s Britain” to compare with “this is the percentage of Americans that were obese in 2000s America.” From the qualitative descriptions I’m seeing, the rich were obese at broadly similar levels to Americans today, and I’m having trouble finding quantitative descriptions. Are you aware of data I’m not aware of?
The trouble is that routine weighing of individuals wasn’t common until industrial times, records are spotty anyway, and so we’re forced to look at individual accounts in most cases. For example, Rubens painted lots of overweight women, so we know they were around, but statistics of an artist’s models says more about the artist than about the general population. Similarly, a 19 year old that weighs 500 pounds is a very rare event, even today. The primary reason we don’t call them fat freaks and put them in circuses is because making fun of abnormal people in person has become less acceptable, and if you do it on television you can find people that weigh more like a thousand pounds.
My point was more than Galen knew about people so fat Jerry Springer would want to put them on his show today, and the heaviest guy you see at a sci-fi convention is comparable to the heaviest guy you would see in the Roman Senate.
I am not sure the outliers (or the tails of the distribution in general) are relevant here. We know that there are metabolic disorders leading to obesity. It’s a pretty good bet that the 500-600 lbs people are metabolically different from the rest of the population and that was as true in the Roman times as it is now.
The real question is not whether the 500 lbs people existed in the olden times, sure they did. The real question is why does it seem that 250-300 lbs people were rare in pre-industrial ages and are rather common now (yes, I don’t know of good data on the prevalence of obesity before XIX century either...).
I don’t think it’s mostly a calorie availability issue. I don’t have a strong opinion on the cause, but if pressed I’d probably point to a confluence of factors including sedentary lifestyles, taste superstimulation and calorically dense foods (mostly refined carbs), stress, etc.
The real question is why does it seem that 250-300 lbs people were rare in pre-industrial ages and are rather common now (yes, I don’t know of good data on the prevalence of obesity before XIX century either...).
I agree that this is the real question; what surprised me was Eliezer’s confident empirical statement on a subject where all the weak data I have points in the opposite direction. It looks to me like the historical data suggests that calorie availability and sedentary lifestyles might be the primary explanations (and of the two, I would expect calorie availability to have a larger impact).
For comparison, this is what it takes to be the fat girl from the first decade of this century. She made the national news when she weighed 63 stone and had to be taken out through the wall of her house to go to hospital. 1 stone = 14 pounds.
A famously fat nobleman? LIke, that was the fat guy from the seventeenth century?
I’m not sure. My point was more than Galen knew about people so fat Jerry Springer would want to put them on his show today, and the heaviest guy you see at a sci-fi convention is comparable to the heaviest guy you would see in the Roman Senate.
I’d be way happier with “this is the percentage of monks that were obese in 1400s Britain” to compare with “this is the percentage of Americans that were obese in 2000s America.” From the qualitative descriptions I’m seeing, the rich were obese at broadly similar levels to Americans today, and I’m having trouble finding quantitative descriptions. Are you aware of data I’m not aware of?
The trouble is that routine weighing of individuals wasn’t common until industrial times, records are spotty anyway, and so we’re forced to look at individual accounts in most cases. For example, Rubens painted lots of overweight women, so we know they were around, but statistics of an artist’s models says more about the artist than about the general population. Similarly, a 19 year old that weighs 500 pounds is a very rare event, even today. The primary reason we don’t call them fat freaks and put them in circuses is because making fun of abnormal people in person has become less acceptable, and if you do it on television you can find people that weigh more like a thousand pounds.
I am not sure the outliers (or the tails of the distribution in general) are relevant here. We know that there are metabolic disorders leading to obesity. It’s a pretty good bet that the 500-600 lbs people are metabolically different from the rest of the population and that was as true in the Roman times as it is now.
The real question is not whether the 500 lbs people existed in the olden times, sure they did. The real question is why does it seem that 250-300 lbs people were rare in pre-industrial ages and are rather common now (yes, I don’t know of good data on the prevalence of obesity before XIX century either...).
I don’t think it’s mostly a calorie availability issue. I don’t have a strong opinion on the cause, but if pressed I’d probably point to a confluence of factors including sedentary lifestyles, taste superstimulation and calorically dense foods (mostly refined carbs), stress, etc.
I agree that this is the real question; what surprised me was Eliezer’s confident empirical statement on a subject where all the weak data I have points in the opposite direction. It looks to me like the historical data suggests that calorie availability and sedentary lifestyles might be the primary explanations (and of the two, I would expect calorie availability to have a larger impact).
For comparison, this is what it takes to be the fat girl from the first decade of this century. She made the national news when she weighed 63 stone and had to be taken out through the wall of her house to go to hospital. 1 stone = 14 pounds.