Wait. So you don’t believe in an objective notion of morality, in the sense of a morality that would be true even if there were no people? Instead, you think of morality as, like, a set of reasonable principles a person can figure out that prevent their immediate desires from stomping on their well-being, and/or that includes in their “selfishness” a desire for the well-being of others?
Everything is non objective for some value of objective. It is doubtful that there are mathematical truths without mathematicians. But that does not make math as subjective as art.
Okay. The distinction I am drawing is: are moral facts something “out there” to be discovered, self-justifying, etc., or are they facts about people, their minds, their situations, and their relationships.
Could you answer the question for that value of objective? Or, if not, could you answer the question by ignoring the word “objective” or providing a particular value for it?
I translate that as: it’s better to talk about “moral values” than “moral facts” (moral facts being facts about what moral values are, I guess), and moral values are (approximately) reasonable principles a person can figure out that prevent their immediate desires from stomping on their well-being, and/or that includes in their “selfishness” a desire for the well-being of others.
Something like that? If not, could you translate for me instead?
I take this to mean that, other than that, you agree.
(This is the charitable reading, however. You seem to be sending strong signals that you do not wish to have a productive discussion. If this is not your intent, be careful—I expect that it is easy to interpret posts like this as sending such signals.)
If this is true, then I think the vast majority of the disagreements you’ve been having in this thread have been due to unnecessary miscommunication.
Wait. So you don’t believe in an objective notion of morality, in the sense of a morality that would be true even if there were no people? Instead, you think of morality as, like, a set of reasonable principles a person can figure out that prevent their immediate desires from stomping on their well-being, and/or that includes in their “selfishness” a desire for the well-being of others?
Everything is non objective for some value of objective. It is doubtful that there are mathematical truths without mathematicians. But that does not make math as subjective as art.
Okay. The distinction I am drawing is: are moral facts something “out there” to be discovered, self-justifying, etc., or are they facts about people, their minds, their situations, and their relationships.
Could you answer the question for that value of objective? Or, if not, could you answer the question by ignoring the word “objective” or providing a particular value for it?
The second is closer, but there is still the issue of the fact-value divide.
ETA: I have a substantive pre-written article on this, but where am I going to post it with my karma...?
I translate that as: it’s better to talk about “moral values” than “moral facts” (moral facts being facts about what moral values are, I guess), and moral values are (approximately) reasonable principles a person can figure out that prevent their immediate desires from stomping on their well-being, and/or that includes in their “selfishness” a desire for the well-being of others.
Something like that? If not, could you translate for me instead?
I think the the fact that moral values apply to groups is important.
I take this to mean that, other than that, you agree.
(This is the charitable reading, however. You seem to be sending strong signals that you do not wish to have a productive discussion. If this is not your intent, be careful—I expect that it is easy to interpret posts like this as sending such signals.)
If this is true, then I think the vast majority of the disagreements you’ve been having in this thread have been due to unnecessary miscommunication.