I suspect he’s thinking mainly of the Mentats and Bene Gesserit. The problem is the semi-mystical basis Herbert explicitly founded Dune on. If that were real, then the characters are more rational than they seem to a shallow reading. Part of the problem is that people have a bias against seeing people who disagree with them on their fundamental interpretations of reality as rational.
It would certainly be possible for the character to act very rationally within the internal logic of the world which they inhabit, even if that world isn’t the same as our own.
But I don’t particularly remember that from the book. I remember lots of politics and intrigue, but I think we need more than that to fit Eliezer’s criteria for “rationalist fiction”, otherwise let’s talk about John Grisham novels.
To be clear: I’m not saying Dune isn’t a rationalist book. I’m just asking for specific examples to refresh my memory.
I was indeed thinking of the Mentats and Bene Gesserit. As you both point out, there was a significant mystical aspect to it. I suppose I was thinking more of the approach taken to mental training (within the world’s internally consistent, but mystical, framework) rather than any specific techniques or events.
Mentats on the other hand have “minds developed to staggering heights of cognitive and analytical ability” (thanks Wikipedia) which would seem to fit the bill.
On the other hand, I suppose that neither of these instances are quite what Eliezer was after, as “you can’t go out and do it at home”.
The Bene Gesserit idea of “decide what’s wrong with the world, make the best you can plan to fix it, and follow it up dispassionately even if takes ten millennia” seemed to me quite “grown-up” in the sense Eliezer uses the word.
As a bonus, they (correctly) reasoned that a good strategy for such a plan includes investigating and perfecting techniques for pushing the human body and mind to its limits. Also, they don’t shy away from using any advantage, including the gullibility of others—even going to the lengths of seeding religions with beliefs that will be useful a thousand years later—, everything they actually believe in does work*, even if not necessarily the “obvious” way (I’m talking about their “witch” powers).
(*: within the logic of the books. Even the effects of the “Tarot” are falsifiable, in the Dune universe.)
The Bene Gesserit are magical witches when seen by less knowledgeable characters, but presented as simply formidable humans when the point of view is internal. This had a strong effect in me (at a greener age) of wanting to learn how to become formidable, instead of wishing for magical powers.
I always thought the Ixian and Tleilaxu(who, it should be noted, can clone unlimited copies of the most powerful mentats they could find samples of) would have done much better in a fair Dune universe.
One thing I’ve never seen in these threads about rationalist literature is RPG handbooks. The 2nd Edition Dungeon Master’s Guide had an enormous influence on me, because it suggested that the world ran on understandable, deterministic rules, which could be applied both to explicate dramatic situations, and to predict the outcome of situations not yet seen.
One of the first things I ever did (I lacked friends to play D&D with) was to assign stats to fictional characters and make pre-existing stories I felt were unsatisfying play out in a more “realistic” manner. A better word would be internally consistent. But I felt very strongly after that point that it was logical to expect that 9 times out of 10 that the entity with the most advantages would come out on top, contrary to the manner of stories, although the dice-rolling kept total predestination at bay.
I read Dune a while ago, but I can’t remember ever thinking that the characters were taking a rationalist approach.
Do you have any specific examples?
I suspect he’s thinking mainly of the Mentats and Bene Gesserit. The problem is the semi-mystical basis Herbert explicitly founded Dune on. If that were real, then the characters are more rational than they seem to a shallow reading. Part of the problem is that people have a bias against seeing people who disagree with them on their fundamental interpretations of reality as rational.
It would certainly be possible for the character to act very rationally within the internal logic of the world which they inhabit, even if that world isn’t the same as our own.
But I don’t particularly remember that from the book. I remember lots of politics and intrigue, but I think we need more than that to fit Eliezer’s criteria for “rationalist fiction”, otherwise let’s talk about John Grisham novels.
To be clear: I’m not saying Dune isn’t a rationalist book. I’m just asking for specific examples to refresh my memory.
I was indeed thinking of the Mentats and Bene Gesserit. As you both point out, there was a significant mystical aspect to it. I suppose I was thinking more of the approach taken to mental training (within the world’s internally consistent, but mystical, framework) rather than any specific techniques or events.
Mentats on the other hand have “minds developed to staggering heights of cognitive and analytical ability” (thanks Wikipedia) which would seem to fit the bill.
On the other hand, I suppose that neither of these instances are quite what Eliezer was after, as “you can’t go out and do it at home”.
The Bene Gesserit idea of “decide what’s wrong with the world, make the best you can plan to fix it, and follow it up dispassionately even if takes ten millennia” seemed to me quite “grown-up” in the sense Eliezer uses the word.
As a bonus, they (correctly) reasoned that a good strategy for such a plan includes investigating and perfecting techniques for pushing the human body and mind to its limits. Also, they don’t shy away from using any advantage, including the gullibility of others—even going to the lengths of seeding religions with beliefs that will be useful a thousand years later—, everything they actually believe in does work*, even if not necessarily the “obvious” way (I’m talking about their “witch” powers).
(*: within the logic of the books. Even the effects of the “Tarot” are falsifiable, in the Dune universe.)
The Bene Gesserit are magical witches when seen by less knowledgeable characters, but presented as simply formidable humans when the point of view is internal. This had a strong effect in me (at a greener age) of wanting to learn how to become formidable, instead of wishing for magical powers.
Let’s see those Bene Gesserit ditzes use Voice over a text-only chat.
I always thought the Ixian and Tleilaxu(who, it should be noted, can clone unlimited copies of the most powerful mentats they could find samples of) would have done much better in a fair Dune universe.
One thing I’ve never seen in these threads about rationalist literature is RPG handbooks. The 2nd Edition Dungeon Master’s Guide had an enormous influence on me, because it suggested that the world ran on understandable, deterministic rules, which could be applied both to explicate dramatic situations, and to predict the outcome of situations not yet seen.
One of the first things I ever did (I lacked friends to play D&D with) was to assign stats to fictional characters and make pre-existing stories I felt were unsatisfying play out in a more “realistic” manner. A better word would be internally consistent. But I felt very strongly after that point that it was logical to expect that 9 times out of 10 that the entity with the most advantages would come out on top, contrary to the manner of stories, although the dice-rolling kept total predestination at bay.
There was a large subplot involving a scientist who was trying to terraform Dune.