An important bit of context that often gets missed when discussing this question is that actual trans athletes competing in women’s sports are very rare. Of the millions competing in organized sports in the US, the total number who are trans might be under 20 (see this statement from the NCAA president estimating “fewer than ten” in college sports, this article reporting that an anti-trans activist group was able to identify only five in K-12 sports, and this Wikipedia article, which identifies only a handful of trans athletes in professional US sports).
Because this phenomenon is so rare relative to how often it’s discussed, I’m a lot more interested in the sociology of the question than the question itself. There was a recent post from Hanson arguing that the Left and Right in the US have become like children on a road trip annoying each other in deniable ways to provoke responses that they hope their parents will punish. I think the discrepancy between the scale of the issue and how often it comes up is mostly due to it being used in this way.
A high school coach who has to choose whether to allow a trans student to compete in female sports is faced with a difficult social dilemma. If they deny the request, then the student- who wants badly to be seen as female- will be disappointed and might face additional bullying; if they allow it, that will be unfair to the other female players. In some cases, other players may be willing to accept a bit of unfairness as an act of probably supererogatory kindness, but in cases where they are aren’t, explaining to the student that they shouldn’t compete without hurting their feelings will take a lot of tact on the part of the coach.
Elevating this to a national conversation isn’t very tactful. People on the right can plausibly claim to only be concerned with fairness in sports, but presented so publicly, this looks to liberals like an attempt to bully trans people. They’re annoyed, and may be provoked into responding in hard to defend ways like demanding unconditional trans participation in women’s sports- which I think is often the point. It’s a child in a car poking the air next to his sister and saying “I’m not touching you”, hoping that she’ll slap him and be punished.
I’m certain the OP didn’t intend anything like that- LessWrong is, of course, a very high-decoupling place. But I’d argue that this is an issue best resolved by letting the very few people directly affected sort out the messy emotions involved among themselves, rather than through public analysis of the question on the object level.
A high school coach who has to choose whether to allow a trans student to compete in female sports is faced with a difficult social dilemma. If they deny the request, then the student- who wants badly to be seen as female- will be disappointed and might face additional bullying; if they allow it, that will be unfair to the other female players. In some cases, other players may be willing to accept a bit of unfairness as an act of probably supererogatory kindness, but in cases where they are aren’t, explaining to the student that they shouldn’t compete without hurting their feelings will take a lot of tact on the part of the coach.
One big part of the issue here is that sports doesn’t have a single goal. At the top of top levels, winning is basically all that matters and you’re trading players around, kicking off people who suck and doing basically everything you can to see who is best.
But most sports isn’t at the top of top levels. A friend group’s weekend pickup basketball game isn’t likely to kick one of their friends out because he sucks unless it’s so massively disproportionate that they’re basically not even playing the game anymore. The YMCA soccer teams I was part of as a kid would field me for part of it despite obviously being a weaker player (in part because I was scared of getting hurt going after the ball cause all the kids just crowd around it).
With casual games like at schools, we typically even shame people who take it too serious and make fun of the behavior like this South Park episode. A quick search on why to play sports comes up with the Google AI recap of
People play sports to improve their physical and mental health by increasing fitness, strengthening bones, reducing stress, and releasing mood-boosting hormones. Sports also provide social benefits, such as developing teamwork, leadership, and communication skills, while building confidence, resilience, and a sense of purpose. Additionally, sports teach valuable life skills like time management and problem-solving, encourage healthy lifestyle habits, and offer a fun way to socialize and make friends.
Interestingly, none of these many reasons chosen by the AI overview is “racking up wins”. After all, the majority of people doing sports will by basic logic not be in the top 1%, or top 10% or even top 49%. And almost every single person participating in school sports will not make it to professional. They simply can not get to the Top of the Top. And yet, they play anyway, so clearly there must be other reasons.
For the majority of actual play, skill level matters mainly for keeping the game feeling like a game. A top 1% basketball player vs your average Joe is such a a wide gap that the average Joe might as well be sitting on a bleacher. A grandmaster chess player vs a novice is going to fall asleep from boredom. A challenger League of Legends team could probably end up 100⁄0 against a Bronze one. But as long as things are equal enough that the game can be maintained, most play doesn’t need to be too concerned about skill level because the truth is that they suck, they will always suck, and they’re playing for a different reason than just getting wins.
An important bit of context that often gets missed when discussing this question is that actual trans athletes competing in women’s sports are very rare. Of the millions competing in organized sports in the US, the total number who are trans might be under 20 (see this statement from the NCAA president estimating “fewer than ten” in college sports, this article reporting that an anti-trans activist group was able to identify only five in K-12 sports, and this Wikipedia article, which identifies only a handful of trans athletes in professional US sports).
Because this phenomenon is so rare relative to how often it’s discussed, I’m a lot more interested in the sociology of the question than the question itself. There was a recent post from Hanson arguing that the Left and Right in the US have become like children on a road trip annoying each other in deniable ways to provoke responses that they hope their parents will punish. I think the discrepancy between the scale of the issue and how often it comes up is mostly due to it being used in this way.
A high school coach who has to choose whether to allow a trans student to compete in female sports is faced with a difficult social dilemma. If they deny the request, then the student- who wants badly to be seen as female- will be disappointed and might face additional bullying; if they allow it, that will be unfair to the other female players. In some cases, other players may be willing to accept a bit of unfairness as an act of probably supererogatory kindness, but in cases where they are aren’t, explaining to the student that they shouldn’t compete without hurting their feelings will take a lot of tact on the part of the coach.
Elevating this to a national conversation isn’t very tactful. People on the right can plausibly claim to only be concerned with fairness in sports, but presented so publicly, this looks to liberals like an attempt to bully trans people. They’re annoyed, and may be provoked into responding in hard to defend ways like demanding unconditional trans participation in women’s sports- which I think is often the point. It’s a child in a car poking the air next to his sister and saying “I’m not touching you”, hoping that she’ll slap him and be punished.
I’m certain the OP didn’t intend anything like that- LessWrong is, of course, a very high-decoupling place. But I’d argue that this is an issue best resolved by letting the very few people directly affected sort out the messy emotions involved among themselves, rather than through public analysis of the question on the object level.
One big part of the issue here is that sports doesn’t have a single goal. At the top of top levels, winning is basically all that matters and you’re trading players around, kicking off people who suck and doing basically everything you can to see who is best.
But most sports isn’t at the top of top levels. A friend group’s weekend pickup basketball game isn’t likely to kick one of their friends out because he sucks unless it’s so massively disproportionate that they’re basically not even playing the game anymore. The YMCA soccer teams I was part of as a kid would field me for part of it despite obviously being a weaker player (in part because I was scared of getting hurt going after the ball cause all the kids just crowd around it).
With casual games like at schools, we typically even shame people who take it too serious and make fun of the behavior like this South Park episode. A quick search on why to play sports comes up with the Google AI recap of
Interestingly, none of these many reasons chosen by the AI overview is “racking up wins”. After all, the majority of people doing sports will by basic logic not be in the top 1%, or top 10% or even top 49%. And almost every single person participating in school sports will not make it to professional. They simply can not get to the Top of the Top. And yet, they play anyway, so clearly there must be other reasons.
For the majority of actual play, skill level matters mainly for keeping the game feeling like a game. A top 1% basketball player vs your average Joe is such a a wide gap that the average Joe might as well be sitting on a bleacher. A grandmaster chess player vs a novice is going to fall asleep from boredom. A challenger League of Legends team could probably end up 100⁄0 against a Bronze one. But as long as things are equal enough that the game can be maintained, most play doesn’t need to be too concerned about skill level because the truth is that they suck, they will always suck, and they’re playing for a different reason than just getting wins.