Usually, I use the term “explicitly said” to mean, “I can quote myself saying verbatim...” But sure, you did say something pretty similar a couple times:
Am I selfish for doing good just because it fits my own view of what is good? Does it mean I’m using others just to satisfy my own sense of being a good person? I think that kind of thing exists, but what I’m pointing at here is a far deeper level. You could do good in utterly sincere abnegation of your own self and you would still be doing it on your own judgement.
What do you mean by that last sentence? Do you want to do good in utterly sincere abnegation of your own self? If so, how is that an utterly sincere abnegation? Can you constructively define what you are pointing at, or do I need to have faith that it exists?
I suppose, abnegation of anything that can be construed as actually benefitting my utility function in ways other than the most abstract level of “I wanted X to happen and made it happen”. And I agree it can’t be any less than that.
Consider the extreme case of someone who sacrifices their life to save another. Even though they may derive serenity or satisfaction from that in their very last moments, it’s hard to construe that as “selfish” in any but the broadest sense, given they don’t even get to experience that for long. You can’t escape that broadest sense, I agree, but it’s so broad as to render the qualification essentially meaningless, especially compared to the usual understood meaning of “selfish”.
Why does it matter how long they get to experience the self-satisfaction after the action was performed? I can see five scenarios where people would self-destruct in this manner:
They prefer the world to look a certain way, more than they prefer their continued existence in the world. Think of all the people who fall into a depression after a loved one dies and says, “I wish it were me, not them.”
They care a lot about their self-perception, so they precommitted to sacrifice if this scenario ever showed up. When it actually does, they wish they hadn’t made that precommitment, but they wouldn’t have gained that self-satisfaction for all those years if they knew they were the kind of person who could easily renege on their commitments.
They were brainwashed by larger society, so they don’t even consider the costs or the benefits, they just take an action. Consider how military basic training breaks down people’s egos and builds them up into unquestioning tools for their superiors to use.
They believe they will be better off, but reality does not conform to their beliefs. Maybe they were promised a mansion in the afterlife, or (if they happen to survive) a medal of honor, money, and respect, but the promises never materialize.
They just failed at analyzing what they want, and whether this helps them achieve that goal. Maybe they were short on time and didn’t think ahead, or maybe they’re just a useful idiot.
In the first two scenarios, people are being selfish. Not everyone has the same wants and desires, so an action that you wouldn’t prefer may be preferable to someone else. The last three scenarios are due to either anti-epistemology or irrationality. If you don’t want something to happen, then you should never be intentionally making it happen. If you do, you’re just serving your own self-interests. As every rational agent does.
You can’t escape that broadest sense, I agree, but it’s so broad as to render the qualification essentially meaningless, especially compared to the usual understood meaning of “selfish”.
Sure. The usual connotation around ‘selfish’ is serving your self-interests at the expense of others. In my original comment, I just used the deontation
‘selfish’, because in the end it comes down to your self-interests
Why does it matter how long they get to experience the self-satisfaction after the action was performed?
Generally speaking I’d say utility is somewhat weighted by duration. I’d be suspicious of a utility function that says that one year of atrocious pain is as bad as one minute, for example.
Other than that, sure, I think it’s fair to say it’s selfish in that very broad sense. I guess my point is that I want to remark that it’s something that is ill-captured intuitively by terms like “self-interest”. To me interest implies some kind of objective direct benefit to my utility, as opposed to a more general goal/want that only implies my aim for something regardless of the reason for it. I’m not sure what a good term for this sort of want-for-want’s sake would be, to distinguish it for the more straightforward wanting something because it brings me pleasure, enjoyment, safety etc.
Usually, I use the term “explicitly said” to mean, “I can quote myself saying verbatim...” But sure, you did say something pretty similar a couple times:
What do you mean by that last sentence? Do you want to do good in utterly sincere abnegation of your own self? If so, how is that an utterly sincere abnegation? Can you constructively define what you are pointing at, or do I need to have faith that it exists?
I suppose, abnegation of anything that can be construed as actually benefitting my utility function in ways other than the most abstract level of “I wanted X to happen and made it happen”. And I agree it can’t be any less than that.
Consider the extreme case of someone who sacrifices their life to save another. Even though they may derive serenity or satisfaction from that in their very last moments, it’s hard to construe that as “selfish” in any but the broadest sense, given they don’t even get to experience that for long. You can’t escape that broadest sense, I agree, but it’s so broad as to render the qualification essentially meaningless, especially compared to the usual understood meaning of “selfish”.
Why does it matter how long they get to experience the self-satisfaction after the action was performed? I can see five scenarios where people would self-destruct in this manner:
They prefer the world to look a certain way, more than they prefer their continued existence in the world. Think of all the people who fall into a depression after a loved one dies and says, “I wish it were me, not them.”
They care a lot about their self-perception, so they precommitted to sacrifice if this scenario ever showed up. When it actually does, they wish they hadn’t made that precommitment, but they wouldn’t have gained that self-satisfaction for all those years if they knew they were the kind of person who could easily renege on their commitments.
They were brainwashed by larger society, so they don’t even consider the costs or the benefits, they just take an action. Consider how military basic training breaks down people’s egos and builds them up into unquestioning tools for their superiors to use.
They believe they will be better off, but reality does not conform to their beliefs. Maybe they were promised a mansion in the afterlife, or (if they happen to survive) a medal of honor, money, and respect, but the promises never materialize.
They just failed at analyzing what they want, and whether this helps them achieve that goal. Maybe they were short on time and didn’t think ahead, or maybe they’re just a useful idiot.
In the first two scenarios, people are being selfish. Not everyone has the same wants and desires, so an action that you wouldn’t prefer may be preferable to someone else. The last three scenarios are due to either anti-epistemology or irrationality. If you don’t want something to happen, then you should never be intentionally making it happen. If you do, you’re just serving your own self-interests. As every rational agent does.
Sure. The usual connotation around ‘selfish’ is serving your self-interests at the expense of others. In my original comment, I just used the deontation
not the connotation.
Generally speaking I’d say utility is somewhat weighted by duration. I’d be suspicious of a utility function that says that one year of atrocious pain is as bad as one minute, for example.
Other than that, sure, I think it’s fair to say it’s selfish in that very broad sense. I guess my point is that I want to remark that it’s something that is ill-captured intuitively by terms like “self-interest”. To me interest implies some kind of objective direct benefit to my utility, as opposed to a more general goal/want that only implies my aim for something regardless of the reason for it. I’m not sure what a good term for this sort of want-for-want’s sake would be, to distinguish it for the more straightforward wanting something because it brings me pleasure, enjoyment, safety etc.