I think a position can be wrong, can be insanely wrong (which means something like “is very far from the truth, is wrong in a way that produces very wrong actions, and is being produced by a process which is failing to update in a way that it should and is failing to notice that fact”), and can be exactly opposite of the truth (for example, “Redwoods are short, grass is tall” is, perhaps depending on contexts, just about the exact opposite of the truth). And these facts are often knowable and relevant if true. And therefore should be said—in a truth-seeking context.
I agree to some extent, which is why I said the following to gears:
It is fine[2] to label opinions you disagree with as “insane”.
It is fine to give your conclusions without explaining the reasons behind your positions.[3]
It is not fine to do 1 and 2 at the same time.
The fact that you chose the word “insane” to describe something that did not seem obviously false, had a fair bit of support in this community, and that you had not given any arguments against at the time was the problem.
The fact that you think something is “insane” is informationally useful to other people, and, all else equal, should be communicated. But all else is not equal, because (as I explained in my previous comments), it is a fabricated option to think that relaxing norms around the way in which particular kinds of information is communicating will not negatively affect the quality of the conversation that unfolds afterwards.
So you could (at least in my view, not sure what the mods think) say something is “insane” if you explain why, because this allows for opportunities to drag the conversation away from mud-slinging Demon Threads and towards the object-level arguments being discussed (and, in this case, saying you think your interlocutor’s position is crazy could actually be helpful at times, since it signals a great level of disagreement and allows for the quicker identification of how many inferential distances between you and the other commenters). Likewise, you could give your conclusions without presenting arguments or explanations for it, as long as your position is not stated in an overly inflammatory manner, because this then incentivizes useful and clear-headed discourse later on when users can ask what the arguments actually are. But if you go the third route, then you maximize the likelihood of the conversation getting derailed.
“Your choice of words makes it seem like you’re angry or something, and this is coming out in a way that seems like a strong bid for something, e.g. attention or agreement or something. It’s a bit hard to orient to that because it’s not clear what if anything you’re angry about, and so readers are forced to either rudely ignore / dismiss, or engage with someone who seems a bit angry or standoffish without knowing why. Can you more directly say what’s going on, e.g. what you’re angry about and what you might request, so we can evaluate that more explicitly?”
This framing focuses on the wrong part, I think. You can be as angry as you want to when you are commenting on LessWrong, and it seems to be inappropriate to enforce norms about the emotions one is supposed to feel when contributing here. The part that matters is whether specific norms of discourse are getting violated (about the literal things someone is writing, not how they feel in that moment), in which case (as I have argued above) I believe the internal state of mind of the person violating them is primarily irrelevant.
you have a problem in your own thinking and norms of discourse
I’m also not sure what you mean by this. You also implied later on that “requiring that statements other people make be from the perspective of [the theory that’s shared between the expected community of speakers and listeners] in order for you to think they’re appropriate” is wrong, which… doesn’t make sense to me, because that’s the very definition of the word appropriate: “meeting the requirements [i.e. norms] of a purpose or situation.”
The same statement can be appropriate or inappropriate, depending on the rules and norms of the community it is made in.
to think that relaxing norms around the way in which particular kinds of information is communicating will not negatively affect the quality of the conversation that unfolds afterwards.
If this happens because someone says something true, relevant, and useful, in a way that doesn’t have alternative expressions that are really easy and obvious to do (such as deleting the statement “So and so is a doo-doo head”), then it’s the fault of the conversation, not the statement.
The alternative expression, in this particular case (not in the mine run of cases), is not to change the word “insane” (because it seems you are certain enough in your belief that it is applicable here that it makes sense for you to communicate this idea some way), but rather to simply write more (or link to a place that contain arguments which relate, with particularity, to the situation at hand) by explaining why you think it’s is true that the statement is “insane”.
If you are so confident in your conclusion that you are willing to label the articulation of the opposing view as “insane”, then it should be straightforward (and more importantly, should not take so much time that it becomes daunting) to give reasons for that, at the time you make that labeling.
I agree to some extent, which is why I said the following to gears:
The fact that you chose the word “insane” to describe something that did not seem obviously false, had a fair bit of support in this community, and that you had not given any arguments against at the time was the problem.
The fact that you think something is “insane” is informationally useful to other people, and, all else equal, should be communicated. But all else is not equal, because (as I explained in my previous comments), it is a fabricated option to think that relaxing norms around the way in which particular kinds of information is communicating will not negatively affect the quality of the conversation that unfolds afterwards.
So you could (at least in my view, not sure what the mods think) say something is “insane” if you explain why, because this allows for opportunities to drag the conversation away from mud-slinging Demon Threads and towards the object-level arguments being discussed (and, in this case, saying you think your interlocutor’s position is crazy could actually be helpful at times, since it signals a great level of disagreement and allows for the quicker identification of how many inferential distances between you and the other commenters). Likewise, you could give your conclusions without presenting arguments or explanations for it, as long as your position is not stated in an overly inflammatory manner, because this then incentivizes useful and clear-headed discourse later on when users can ask what the arguments actually are. But if you go the third route, then you maximize the likelihood of the conversation getting derailed.
This framing focuses on the wrong part, I think. You can be as angry as you want to when you are commenting on LessWrong, and it seems to be inappropriate to enforce norms about the emotions one is supposed to feel when contributing here. The part that matters is whether specific norms of discourse are getting violated (about the literal things someone is writing, not how they feel in that moment), in which case (as I have argued above) I believe the internal state of mind of the person violating them is primarily irrelevant.
I’m also not sure what you mean by this. You also implied later on that “requiring that statements other people make be from the perspective of [the theory that’s shared between the expected community of speakers and listeners] in order for you to think they’re appropriate” is wrong, which… doesn’t make sense to me, because that’s the very definition of the word appropriate: “meeting the requirements [i.e. norms] of a purpose or situation.”
The same statement can be appropriate or inappropriate, depending on the rules and norms of the community it is made in.
If this happens because someone says something true, relevant, and useful, in a way that doesn’t have alternative expressions that are really easy and obvious to do (such as deleting the statement “So and so is a doo-doo head”), then it’s the fault of the conversation, not the statement.
The alternative expression, in this particular case (not in the mine run of cases), is not to change the word “insane” (because it seems you are certain enough in your belief that it is applicable here that it makes sense for you to communicate this idea some way), but rather to simply write more (or link to a place that contain arguments which relate, with particularity, to the situation at hand) by explaining why you think it’s is true that the statement is “insane”.
If you are so confident in your conclusion that you are willing to label the articulation of the opposing view as “insane”, then it should be straightforward (and more importantly, should not take so much time that it becomes daunting) to give reasons for that, at the time you make that labeling.
NOPE!
I think I’m going to bow out of this conversation right now, since it doesn’t seem you want to meaningfully engage.