Eliezer’s probably saying that the patrons of said Alabama bar would be, shall we say, highly unlikely to appreciate the neutral point of view, probably due to ingroup biases. It’s the arguments-as-soldiers thing again, and you’re implicitly putting yourself on the wrong side.
I’ve never been to Alabama myself, so I don’t know whether this is actually true or not. I suspect it wouldn’t be as bad as he’s implying (it might start an argument, but I wouldn’t expect a fight), but that might be my optimism acting up.
I’ve never been to Alabama myself, so I don’t know whether this is actually true or not. I suspect it wouldn’t be as bad as he’s implying (it might start an argument, but I wouldn’t expect a fight), but that might be my optimism acting up.
Maybe it’s just because I’m a New Yorker, but trust me that you don’t have to cross the Mason-Dixon line for people to be willing to sock someone who said something even remotely positive about the 9/11 hijackers. Things have cooled down a bit in the last twelve years, but there are still some things you just don’t say. Or imply, in this case.
I know that I would personally have trouble restraining myself if someone expressed actual support for, or tried to equivocate-away, the crimes of terrorists in my presence. It’s absolutely an issue of tribal loyalty, and not even entirely irrational; expressing empathy for an enemy weakens your resolve against them, which is not a particularly wise choice when the only way our tribe can lose is by giving up.
We’re discussing people’s emotional reactions to these types of statements and why they feel those emotions.
I pointed out that those reactions are typically strong and negative (and not just in Alabama), and that holding them is instrumentally rational.
Since this isn’t preventing me from updating on any evidence presented (I absorbed the “everyone is the hero of their life story” moral years and years ago), I don’t see that I’m particularly mind-dead in this scenario.
My reasoning is… well it’s hard to explain without going 100% RL politics, which is as rude as it is counterproductive. Basically there’s different schools of thought on the strategy involved in asymmetrical warfare and I tend to come down on a particularly unpopular and effective side of the debate. That’s all I’m willing to say in public.
In terms of instrumental rationality, it’s pretty simple; being part of the winning team is generally useful, cheering and wearing the colors shows people you’re on the team, and you cheer a lot more enthusiastically when you actually believe it. Cognitive dissonance gets a bad rap, but it really is a lot easier to compartmentalize than to maintain a lie long-term.
being part of the winning team is generally useful
True. However cheering for your team while dehumanizing your opponents is often a poor way to make your team stronger in the long run. Labeling someone a terrorist diminishes your desire to understand their motivations and eventually mitigate further terrorism. Instead one ends up supporting Iraq war-style mission creep resulting in the needless deaths of those on your team.
In terms of instrumental rationality, it’s pretty simple; being part of the winning team is generally useful, cheering and wearing the colors shows people you’re on the team, and you cheer a lot more enthusiastically when you actually believe it.
“One thing is for certain: there is no stopping them; the ants will soon be here. And I for one welcome our new insect overlords. I’d like to remind them that as a trusted TV personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves.”
It seems pretty obvious to me that your tribe can also lose by directing its energy in the wrong direction, resulting in harms to yourselves. As, for example, has already happened with TSA, so I hear. (This doesn’t mean “the terrorists have won” but it does mean you have lost.)
I’ve never been to Alabama, but as I understand it the cultural climate in Alabama shares certain key characteristics with that in rural Massachusetts.
Were I, in a rural Massachusetts bar, to make any public statement to the effect that the individuals who flew planes into the WTC could plausibly be seen as heroes, or that they were comparable in any way to American soldiers fighting and dying for American interests (1), I would expect the locals to view this as a challenge to sacred virtues and to react accordingly.
I would not expect this to necessarily cause a fight (though it depends on how I went about it, and whether and how I backed down when those virtues were upheld by those around me); it wouldn’t even necessarily get me asked to leave (though that’s more likely, especially if I continued to defend that position).
(1) Edit: on further thought, I suspect that just talking about U.S. soldiers fighting for “American interests” (as opposed to “American values” or “America” or some such thing) would raise a suspicious eyebrow or two, as it superficially pattern-matches to a particular mid-1900s stereotypical formulation of Communist propaganda.
Eliezer’s probably saying that the patrons of said Alabama bar would be, shall we say, highly unlikely to appreciate the neutral point of view, probably due to ingroup biases. It’s the arguments-as-soldiers thing again, and you’re implicitly putting yourself on the wrong side.
I’ve never been to Alabama myself, so I don’t know whether this is actually true or not. I suspect it wouldn’t be as bad as he’s implying (it might start an argument, but I wouldn’t expect a fight), but that might be my optimism acting up.
Yes, I understood as soon as I read the next sentence. I just felt silly that I couldn’t figure it out myself.
Maybe it’s just because I’m a New Yorker, but trust me that you don’t have to cross the Mason-Dixon line for people to be willing to sock someone who said something even remotely positive about the 9/11 hijackers. Things have cooled down a bit in the last twelve years, but there are still some things you just don’t say. Or imply, in this case.
I know that I would personally have trouble restraining myself if someone expressed actual support for, or tried to equivocate-away, the crimes of terrorists in my presence. It’s absolutely an issue of tribal loyalty, and not even entirely irrational; expressing empathy for an enemy weakens your resolve against them, which is not a particularly wise choice when the only way our tribe can lose is by giving up.
I see a mind being killed.
We’re discussing people’s emotional reactions to these types of statements and why they feel those emotions.
I pointed out that those reactions are typically strong and negative (and not just in Alabama), and that holding them is instrumentally rational.
Since this isn’t preventing me from updating on any evidence presented (I absorbed the “everyone is the hero of their life story” moral years and years ago), I don’t see that I’m particularly mind-dead in this scenario.
I saw mind killing in the particular phrase:
I also have doubts about that instrumental rationality.
My reasoning is… well it’s hard to explain without going 100% RL politics, which is as rude as it is counterproductive. Basically there’s different schools of thought on the strategy involved in asymmetrical warfare and I tend to come down on a particularly unpopular and effective side of the debate. That’s all I’m willing to say in public.
In terms of instrumental rationality, it’s pretty simple; being part of the winning team is generally useful, cheering and wearing the colors shows people you’re on the team, and you cheer a lot more enthusiastically when you actually believe it. Cognitive dissonance gets a bad rap, but it really is a lot easier to compartmentalize than to maintain a lie long-term.
True. However cheering for your team while dehumanizing your opponents is often a poor way to make your team stronger in the long run. Labeling someone a terrorist diminishes your desire to understand their motivations and eventually mitigate further terrorism. Instead one ends up supporting Iraq war-style mission creep resulting in the needless deaths of those on your team.
“One thing is for certain: there is no stopping them; the ants will soon be here. And I for one welcome our new insect overlords. I’d like to remind them that as a trusted TV personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves.”
It seems pretty obvious to me that your tribe can also lose by directing its energy in the wrong direction, resulting in harms to yourselves. As, for example, has already happened with TSA, so I hear. (This doesn’t mean “the terrorists have won” but it does mean you have lost.)
I’ve never been to Alabama, but as I understand it the cultural climate in Alabama shares certain key characteristics with that in rural Massachusetts.
Were I, in a rural Massachusetts bar, to make any public statement to the effect that the individuals who flew planes into the WTC could plausibly be seen as heroes, or that they were comparable in any way to American soldiers fighting and dying for American interests (1), I would expect the locals to view this as a challenge to sacred virtues and to react accordingly.
I would not expect this to necessarily cause a fight (though it depends on how I went about it, and whether and how I backed down when those virtues were upheld by those around me); it wouldn’t even necessarily get me asked to leave (though that’s more likely, especially if I continued to defend that position).
(1) Edit: on further thought, I suspect that just talking about U.S. soldiers fighting for “American interests” (as opposed to “American values” or “America” or some such thing) would raise a suspicious eyebrow or two, as it superficially pattern-matches to a particular mid-1900s stereotypical formulation of Communist propaganda.