In a universe that contained no minds, a clean table and a cluttered table would both be neutral objects, but in the world-simulation that Mary’s brain builds, a cluttered table is obviously bad and cleaning is neutral.
In a universe that contained no minds, a table with an image painted on it that offends most people in this universe’s US would also be a neutral object. As it stands, it would not be a good idea to keep such a table uncovered if you were expecting guests and wanted to maintain positive social status.
The same goes for a messy house. It may be a matter of subjective preference, but it’s a subjective preference that a lot of people share. If someone prefers a messy house to the labor of cleaning it up, they may inadvertently send the signal that they do not care about the aesthetic preferences of others, just as they would if they preferred not showering to the annoyance of showering.
Furthermore, a messy house, if allowed to become messier over time, will eventually become more difficult to navigate. Even if movement isn’t blocked or made hazardous, finding objects becomes a matter of mind-reading, as there is no longer an expectation that they will be returned to a specific place. Coordinating tasks also becomes more difficult—if there’s no place for dirty laundry and dirty dishes, ensuring that everything gets cleaned efficiently becomes a matter of approximation. Clean dishes are a preference insofar as not having cockroaches and ants is a preference. Clean laundry is a preference insofar as having a higher probability of keeping a job is a preference.
I’ve seen the “if it bothers you, clean it” approach taken, and it quickly leads to a Tragedy of the Commons situation. Everyone can make a mess individually, but the cost is shared. Conversely, anyone can clean, but the social benefits go to everyone.
Likewise, negotiating with personal utility functions in mind simply gives an advantage (in terms of time spent on cleaning) to the person who dislikes cleaning. If cleaning is seen as a way of dealing with the collective harm of a mess, saying “I don’t like it or care, so I shouldn’t have to do as much as someone who cares about it” makes as much sense as saying “I don’t mind the smell of smoke, so why can’t I smoke in the house just because you dislike it? What if I only smoke in the house 50% of the time? Isn’t that a compromise?”
A heuristic that works well in cases of shared harm, I think, is to give each person responsibility over minimizing harm in some specific area. In other words, “you clean the bathroom, I clean the kitchen, and our own bedrooms will be as dirty or clean as we like.”
That said, all of this assumes that nobody prefers being surrounded by scavenging arthropods. Having once, some time ago, lived in such a messy way that a colony of pillbugs moved into my room to live off of the debris, I can vouch that they were pretty cute. But practically speaking, they had to go.
FWIW, I’ve lived with people whose actual preferred level of mess-to-live-in was different.
That is, it wasn’t that everyone agreed that X level of neatness was better but some people didn’t feel like doing the work, it was that person A wanted X level of neatness and was uncomfortable at Y level, and person B wanted Y level of neatness and was uncomfortable at X level.
At least, that’s how it seemed to me. I suppose if I started out with a stronger prior in favor of the people-prefer-X-level-of-neatness theory, I might find it more plausible that B was either signaling dishonestly or genuinely unaware of their own preferences. (The latter was A’s theory about B, expressed as “If they just live in a neat house for a while they’ll see how much better it is!”)
That said, both X and Y were noticeably cleaner than the scavenging-arthropods stage.
person A wanted X level of neatness and was uncomfortable at Y level,
and person B wanted Y level of neatness and was uncomfortable at X level.
I’ve had a similar experience of somebody wanting a (small) amount of mess. The explanation was that if a house didn’t look ‘lived it’ it wasn’t really home, and therefore not a conformable place to live.
I actually am such a person, if anyone wants to ask relevant questions. I grew up in a very messy house—my father didn’t care, and my mother was disabled enough to have trouble keeping on top of things—and I find living-places that are too clean to be anxiety-inducing.
I expect my best friend’s son (now 6 months old) may grow up this way. They live with her mother-in-law and I have never in my life seen so much stuff in one house. The overall impression is of abundance rather than clutter, but there’s still a lot of clutter. It’s the kind of house where a student like me goes empty handed and leaves with a bag full of food and old clothes to try on and extra Tupperwares.
I have lived with people whose natural level of cleanliness is (a) comparable to mine (b) nevertheless rather awful when I look at it slightly afresh (c) we both realise this (d) we have some difficulty acting on it anyway.
Share houses are a good reason to become a terminal misanthrope, at least for a while.
“I don’t mind the smell of smoke, so why can’t I smoke in the house just because you dislike it? What if I only smoke in the house 50% of the time? Isn’t that a compromise?”
The analogy is good, but I don’t think it maps exactly. Second-hand smoke is clinically proven to have negative health effects, whereas mess (in terms of clutter, at least, not filth to the point of arthropod infestation) causes no physical harm. I think that’s why I feel strongly that it’s NOT okay to smoke in the house as a compromise, but that it should be okay to compromise on cleaning standards.
I don’t like to bad messes for other reasons, but I see no disadvantage to roaches, ants, pillbugs, or other free pets and protein sources unless it’s that kinds that bits hard enough to hurt.
The same goes for a messy house. It may be a matter of subjective preference, but it’s a subjective preference that a lot of people share.
Apparently one my roommates and landlady all shared and I didn’t. I like clean countertops and clean dishes and I would not like pill-bugs in my room (I almost always did my dishes and I don’t leave food or dishes in my room for more than 24 hours) but papers on the desk and clothes on the floor don’t bother me at all...in fact, I think I find them vaguely comforting. Messy is not necessarily the same thing as dirty. I think most people don’t like dirty, but some people are more okay with messy.
If someone prefers a messy house to the labor of cleaning it up, they may inadvertently send the signal that they do not care about the aesthetic preferences of others, just as they would if they preferred not showering to the annoyance of showering.
If their friends who they have over have higher cleanliness standards, then maybe. Otherwise...most of my friends live in messier houses than I do, and it doesn’t bother me at all. Maybe we’ll get tidier as we get older and fussier.
In a universe that contained no minds, a table with an image painted on it that offends most people in this universe’s US would also be a neutral object. As it stands, it would not be a good idea to keep such a table uncovered if you were expecting guests and wanted to maintain positive social status.
The same goes for a messy house. It may be a matter of subjective preference, but it’s a subjective preference that a lot of people share. If someone prefers a messy house to the labor of cleaning it up, they may inadvertently send the signal that they do not care about the aesthetic preferences of others, just as they would if they preferred not showering to the annoyance of showering.
Furthermore, a messy house, if allowed to become messier over time, will eventually become more difficult to navigate. Even if movement isn’t blocked or made hazardous, finding objects becomes a matter of mind-reading, as there is no longer an expectation that they will be returned to a specific place. Coordinating tasks also becomes more difficult—if there’s no place for dirty laundry and dirty dishes, ensuring that everything gets cleaned efficiently becomes a matter of approximation. Clean dishes are a preference insofar as not having cockroaches and ants is a preference. Clean laundry is a preference insofar as having a higher probability of keeping a job is a preference.
I’ve seen the “if it bothers you, clean it” approach taken, and it quickly leads to a Tragedy of the Commons situation. Everyone can make a mess individually, but the cost is shared. Conversely, anyone can clean, but the social benefits go to everyone.
Likewise, negotiating with personal utility functions in mind simply gives an advantage (in terms of time spent on cleaning) to the person who dislikes cleaning. If cleaning is seen as a way of dealing with the collective harm of a mess, saying “I don’t like it or care, so I shouldn’t have to do as much as someone who cares about it” makes as much sense as saying “I don’t mind the smell of smoke, so why can’t I smoke in the house just because you dislike it? What if I only smoke in the house 50% of the time? Isn’t that a compromise?”
A heuristic that works well in cases of shared harm, I think, is to give each person responsibility over minimizing harm in some specific area. In other words, “you clean the bathroom, I clean the kitchen, and our own bedrooms will be as dirty or clean as we like.”
That said, all of this assumes that nobody prefers being surrounded by scavenging arthropods. Having once, some time ago, lived in such a messy way that a colony of pillbugs moved into my room to live off of the debris, I can vouch that they were pretty cute. But practically speaking, they had to go.
FWIW, I’ve lived with people whose actual preferred level of mess-to-live-in was different.
That is, it wasn’t that everyone agreed that X level of neatness was better but some people didn’t feel like doing the work, it was that person A wanted X level of neatness and was uncomfortable at Y level, and person B wanted Y level of neatness and was uncomfortable at X level.
At least, that’s how it seemed to me. I suppose if I started out with a stronger prior in favor of the people-prefer-X-level-of-neatness theory, I might find it more plausible that B was either signaling dishonestly or genuinely unaware of their own preferences. (The latter was A’s theory about B, expressed as “If they just live in a neat house for a while they’ll see how much better it is!”)
That said, both X and Y were noticeably cleaner than the scavenging-arthropods stage.
I’ve had a similar experience of somebody wanting a (small) amount of mess. The explanation was that if a house didn’t look ‘lived it’ it wasn’t really home, and therefore not a conformable place to live.
I actually am such a person, if anyone wants to ask relevant questions. I grew up in a very messy house—my father didn’t care, and my mother was disabled enough to have trouble keeping on top of things—and I find living-places that are too clean to be anxiety-inducing.
I expect my best friend’s son (now 6 months old) may grow up this way. They live with her mother-in-law and I have never in my life seen so much stuff in one house. The overall impression is of abundance rather than clutter, but there’s still a lot of clutter. It’s the kind of house where a student like me goes empty handed and leaves with a bag full of food and old clothes to try on and extra Tupperwares.
I have lived with people whose natural level of cleanliness is (a) comparable to mine (b) nevertheless rather awful when I look at it slightly afresh (c) we both realise this (d) we have some difficulty acting on it anyway.
Share houses are a good reason to become a terminal misanthrope, at least for a while.
Well, yes… there’s that, too. There are reasons I don’t live that way anymore.
The analogy is good, but I don’t think it maps exactly. Second-hand smoke is clinically proven to have negative health effects, whereas mess (in terms of clutter, at least, not filth to the point of arthropod infestation) causes no physical harm. I think that’s why I feel strongly that it’s NOT okay to smoke in the house as a compromise, but that it should be okay to compromise on cleaning standards.
Arthropod are adorable. ^_^
I don’t like to bad messes for other reasons, but I see no disadvantage to roaches, ants, pillbugs, or other free pets and protein sources unless it’s that kinds that bits hard enough to hurt.
Apparently one my roommates and landlady all shared and I didn’t. I like clean countertops and clean dishes and I would not like pill-bugs in my room (I almost always did my dishes and I don’t leave food or dishes in my room for more than 24 hours) but papers on the desk and clothes on the floor don’t bother me at all...in fact, I think I find them vaguely comforting. Messy is not necessarily the same thing as dirty. I think most people don’t like dirty, but some people are more okay with messy.
If their friends who they have over have higher cleanliness standards, then maybe. Otherwise...most of my friends live in messier houses than I do, and it doesn’t bother me at all. Maybe we’ll get tidier as we get older and fussier.