However interesting the question of origins in economics is, I was under the impression that we were talking about how it currently works, not how it was conceptualized decades and centuries ago.
I’d be fascinated to hear why you thought it doubtful that I’ve read those books (most happen to be included in the University of Chicago’s core reading requirement, and Friedman and Rothbard are obviously connected to the school); perhaps I’m insufficiently aware of the quality of economics education elsewhere. It’s just that none of those are being used in modern research, with the exception of Friedman’s technical papers—and the modern foundations of economics do not depend on them in the slightest. See e.g. Gary Becker’s 1962 paper which discusses how even the normal assumption of rationality on the part of consumers is unnecessary to the basic functioning of markets.
As an important note, the efficient functioning of markets, while often spoken of as a terminal value, has never in my experience actually been other than instrumental: efficient markets quite by definition are allowing greater progress along individual value scales than inefficient markets, though not necessarily as much progress as some further refinement (like regulation).
I suspect, however, that we are just using different definitions of the subject. It seems that you are primarily interested in the economics of public policy and in the value judgments that drive it. Indeed, you define out the very kind of economics that is most prevalent in modern departments (Berkeley perhaps excepted): mathematical models that seek to understand and predict how humans will act.
In short, I, and much of the modern profession of economics, hold little attachment to the origins of economic theory (though I am surprised that you didn’t include Smith’s Wealth of Nations in your list, being more directly foundational for economics through the 19th century). If you really wanted to get into it, economics goes back to Xenophon’s Oeconomicus, but surely we aren’t to believe that modern economics bears any similarity to ancient Greek household management theory. Economics, to match your phrasing, is statistics plus insights about how humans actually behave.
Finally, my thoughts on the dichotomy were expressed in a previous article here.
efficient markets quite by definition are allowing greater progress along individual value scales than inefficient markets, though not necessarily as much progress as some further refinement
Inefficient markets are great for increasing individual wealth of certain groups. I think Rothbard would disagree with the second point (regulation) - as would I.
In short, I, and much of the modern profession of economics, hold little attachment to the origins of economic theory (though I am surprised that you didn’t include Smith’s Wealth of Nations in your list, being more directly foundational for economics through the 19th century).
The wealth of nations was built on the philosophical foundations set in TMS it is even referenced as such with Smith labeling economics as the study of the nature of morality.
Indeed, you define out the very kind of economics that is most prevalent in modern departments (Berkeley perhaps excepted): mathematical models that seek to understand and predict how humans will act.
Explain to me how that is different than statistics. You cannot do economics without good statistics, but if it stops there, then you are a statistician; by definition. Just because you are discussing markets is irrelevant.
As I said in other responses, modern economics seeks to be little more than advanced statistics as you mentioned. You undoubtedly took econometrics so you will know what I am referencing. Masters level economics might as well be a masters of statistics currently.
The reason this is the case is because political economy was getting a bad rap around the time of the first U.S. depression (1893) and was being marginalized to the point of extinction. The result was that Thorsten Veblen, Alfred Marshall and others formed what we now call neoclassical economics in the late 19th century. At that point the basis’ and market theories implicit in the assumptions in each of the Smith/Marx/Mises camps. Further study from there revolved around either supply and demand, labor theory of value or time preference assumptions. The first example taking the broadest foothold.
Again, this is the stuff that economic philosophers debate and really has no relation to the original topic at this level.
However interesting the question of origins in economics is, I was under the impression that we were talking about how it currently works, not how it was conceptualized decades and centuries ago.
I’d be fascinated to hear why you thought it doubtful that I’ve read those books (most happen to be included in the University of Chicago’s core reading requirement, and Friedman and Rothbard are obviously connected to the school); perhaps I’m insufficiently aware of the quality of economics education elsewhere. It’s just that none of those are being used in modern research, with the exception of Friedman’s technical papers—and the modern foundations of economics do not depend on them in the slightest. See e.g. Gary Becker’s 1962 paper which discusses how even the normal assumption of rationality on the part of consumers is unnecessary to the basic functioning of markets.
As an important note, the efficient functioning of markets, while often spoken of as a terminal value, has never in my experience actually been other than instrumental: efficient markets quite by definition are allowing greater progress along individual value scales than inefficient markets, though not necessarily as much progress as some further refinement (like regulation).
I suspect, however, that we are just using different definitions of the subject. It seems that you are primarily interested in the economics of public policy and in the value judgments that drive it. Indeed, you define out the very kind of economics that is most prevalent in modern departments (Berkeley perhaps excepted): mathematical models that seek to understand and predict how humans will act.
In short, I, and much of the modern profession of economics, hold little attachment to the origins of economic theory (though I am surprised that you didn’t include Smith’s Wealth of Nations in your list, being more directly foundational for economics through the 19th century). If you really wanted to get into it, economics goes back to Xenophon’s Oeconomicus, but surely we aren’t to believe that modern economics bears any similarity to ancient Greek household management theory. Economics, to match your phrasing, is statistics plus insights about how humans actually behave.
Finally, my thoughts on the dichotomy were expressed in a previous article here.
Inefficient markets are great for increasing individual wealth of certain groups. I think Rothbard would disagree with the second point (regulation) - as would I.
The wealth of nations was built on the philosophical foundations set in TMS it is even referenced as such with Smith labeling economics as the study of the nature of morality.
Explain to me how that is different than statistics. You cannot do economics without good statistics, but if it stops there, then you are a statistician; by definition. Just because you are discussing markets is irrelevant.
As I said in other responses, modern economics seeks to be little more than advanced statistics as you mentioned. You undoubtedly took econometrics so you will know what I am referencing. Masters level economics might as well be a masters of statistics currently.
The reason this is the case is because political economy was getting a bad rap around the time of the first U.S. depression (1893) and was being marginalized to the point of extinction. The result was that Thorsten Veblen, Alfred Marshall and others formed what we now call neoclassical economics in the late 19th century. At that point the basis’ and market theories implicit in the assumptions in each of the Smith/Marx/Mises camps. Further study from there revolved around either supply and demand, labor theory of value or time preference assumptions. The first example taking the broadest foothold.
Again, this is the stuff that economic philosophers debate and really has no relation to the original topic at this level.