How about Machiavelli? He was perhaps the first person 1500 years to say sensible things about politics-as-they-are, rather than about politics-as-we-would-wish them. He had very substantial influence on the modern understanding of politics and government—People in England and France who were building modern states seem to have read him closely.
In terms of philosophical method: His rhetorical style is to look around, give examples, and discuss counter-evidence—rather than to reason forward from definitions. Perhaps relatedly, he was one of the few notable philosophers with real experience in the field he was writing about. He was a senior civil servant in Florence, with responsibility for military and diplomatic affairs. As a result, he was personally acquainted with many of the major figures in Italian politics of the time. He wasn’t simply guessing how these things worked.
Perhaps relatedly, he was one of the few notable philosophers with real experience in the field he was writing about. He was a senior civil servant in Florence, with responsibility for military and diplomatic affairs. As a result, he was personally acquainted with many of the major figures in Italian politics of the time. He wasn’t simply guessing how these things worked.
Which perhaps suggests it would be doing him a disservice to accuse him of being a philosopher. (Somewhat tongue in cheek.)
A bit of a silly thing to say, even if it is tounge-and-cheek.
1- The line between political philosopher and political scientist in Machievalli’s context is an arbitrary imposistion, however the most credible way to do it is to distinguish one from the other based on whether they used abstract reasoning or empirical evidence to come to their conclusion.
Although it would be true to say that Machievalli was a political scientist in the same way, say, Aristotle, was a scientist about empirical matters, he lived in a time before political philosophy became useless. Writers such as Locke, Volitare, and Marx were part of movements that, whilst they had little correlation with reality, were effective at creating change- in the case of Volitaire’s French Revolution, triggering a definite net improvement in the long run over the old reigme. Prior to 1900, the thesis “Political philosophers are useless” is utterly silly.
2- A good philosopher (as opposed to a bad one) will clarify thinking on the matter concerned and, by getting rid of irrationalities existing in the subject matter, improve thought. Take Hume for an example of this. Philosophy is not astrology- done right, rare though that may be, it can be helpful.
A good philosopher (as opposed to a bad one) will clarify thinking on the matter concerned and, by getting rid of irrationalities existing in the subject matter, improve thought.
“The purpose of philosophy is to destroy philosophy.”
If you mean that philosophers should find answers to philosophical questions, thus (in theory) ultimately leading to no more need for philosophical speculation, in terms of what would be best, I agree. However, teaching things of a philosophical nature would still be necessary even in such an ideal world in order to improve thought.
If you mean that philosophy should ultimately be transformed into other fields, I will say that in some areas I’m not sure but there are areas where this isn’t really possible- making the refutation of the skeptic a non-philosophical question, for example, is impossible. Another example would be ethics in a prescriptivist sense, or the problem of personal identity. There are ways of solving these, but there is no way to make them non-philosophical.
A bit of a silly thing to say, even if it is tounge-and-cheek.
I disagree and reject your labelling. I’d go as far as calling your objection naive.The difference between things-that-philosophers-do and the things that Machiavelli did point to important distinctions in reality. Regardless of whether or not ‘philosopher’ is stretched to include people that are atypical of the class it remains important to at least acknowledge that there is a difference that is being glossed over.
A- I was not saying that Machievalli wasn’t a political scientist- the distinction is considerably vague and I know so little I don’t consider an assertion in the negative justified. However, to claim it was a disservice would imply it was somehow insulting to suggest he was a philosopher. Would it be a disservice to Einstein to suggest he was a biologist? No- however silly it would be in that less ambigious case.
B- If we take examples in the period between, say, 1400 and 1600 of “political scientists”, and “political philosophers”, then the distinction becomes very vague. Most examples are ambigious rather than clearly one or clearly the other. I would venture a guess (though I don’t know quite enough to assert it) that most of them would draw on experience of the world (sort-of scientific), not do experiments (impossible for practical purposes to experiment- very ocassionally a ruler could test out a political philosophy but this is the limit and still not scientific), and include implicit philosophy through the use of ethics in terms of what sort of society would be ‘best’ (for example, Machievalli himself implicitly assumed in the Prince, although I’m given to understand it’s a bit different in other works, that the fact men are evil means a ruler is not obliged to treat them in a good fashion. This is an ethical claim).
If there is intended to be paragraph breaks here (including before the “B-” marker) keep in mind that markdown syntax requires two ‘enters’ to indicate paragraphs.
How about Machiavelli? He was perhaps the first person 1500 years to say sensible things about politics-as-they-are, rather than about politics-as-we-would-wish them. He had very substantial influence on the modern understanding of politics and government—People in England and France who were building modern states seem to have read him closely.
In terms of philosophical method: His rhetorical style is to look around, give examples, and discuss counter-evidence—rather than to reason forward from definitions. Perhaps relatedly, he was one of the few notable philosophers with real experience in the field he was writing about. He was a senior civil servant in Florence, with responsibility for military and diplomatic affairs. As a result, he was personally acquainted with many of the major figures in Italian politics of the time. He wasn’t simply guessing how these things worked.
Which perhaps suggests it would be doing him a disservice to accuse him of being a philosopher. (Somewhat tongue in cheek.)
A bit of a silly thing to say, even if it is tounge-and-cheek.
1- The line between political philosopher and political scientist in Machievalli’s context is an arbitrary imposistion, however the most credible way to do it is to distinguish one from the other based on whether they used abstract reasoning or empirical evidence to come to their conclusion.
Although it would be true to say that Machievalli was a political scientist in the same way, say, Aristotle, was a scientist about empirical matters, he lived in a time before political philosophy became useless. Writers such as Locke, Volitare, and Marx were part of movements that, whilst they had little correlation with reality, were effective at creating change- in the case of Volitaire’s French Revolution, triggering a definite net improvement in the long run over the old reigme. Prior to 1900, the thesis “Political philosophers are useless” is utterly silly.
2- A good philosopher (as opposed to a bad one) will clarify thinking on the matter concerned and, by getting rid of irrationalities existing in the subject matter, improve thought. Take Hume for an example of this. Philosophy is not astrology- done right, rare though that may be, it can be helpful.
“The purpose of philosophy is to destroy philosophy.”
-- me, right here
If you mean that philosophers should find answers to philosophical questions, thus (in theory) ultimately leading to no more need for philosophical speculation, in terms of what would be best, I agree. However, teaching things of a philosophical nature would still be necessary even in such an ideal world in order to improve thought.
If you mean that philosophy should ultimately be transformed into other fields, I will say that in some areas I’m not sure but there are areas where this isn’t really possible- making the refutation of the skeptic a non-philosophical question, for example, is impossible. Another example would be ethics in a prescriptivist sense, or the problem of personal identity. There are ways of solving these, but there is no way to make them non-philosophical.
I disagree and reject your labelling. I’d go as far as calling your objection naive.The difference between things-that-philosophers-do and the things that Machiavelli did point to important distinctions in reality. Regardless of whether or not ‘philosopher’ is stretched to include people that are atypical of the class it remains important to at least acknowledge that there is a difference that is being glossed over.
A- I was not saying that Machievalli wasn’t a political scientist- the distinction is considerably vague and I know so little I don’t consider an assertion in the negative justified. However, to claim it was a disservice would imply it was somehow insulting to suggest he was a philosopher. Would it be a disservice to Einstein to suggest he was a biologist? No- however silly it would be in that less ambigious case. B- If we take examples in the period between, say, 1400 and 1600 of “political scientists”, and “political philosophers”, then the distinction becomes very vague. Most examples are ambigious rather than clearly one or clearly the other. I would venture a guess (though I don’t know quite enough to assert it) that most of them would draw on experience of the world (sort-of scientific), not do experiments (impossible for practical purposes to experiment- very ocassionally a ruler could test out a political philosophy but this is the limit and still not scientific), and include implicit philosophy through the use of ethics in terms of what sort of society would be ‘best’ (for example, Machievalli himself implicitly assumed in the Prince, although I’m given to understand it’s a bit different in other works, that the fact men are evil means a ruler is not obliged to treat them in a good fashion. This is an ethical claim).
If there is intended to be paragraph breaks here (including before the “B-” marker) keep in mind that markdown syntax requires two ‘enters’ to indicate paragraphs.