There often is not any difference at all between flirting and friendliness. People vary very much in their ways. And yet we are supposed to easily tell the difference, with threat of imprisonment for failing.
The main effects I have seen and experienced, is that flirting typically involve more eye contact, and that a lot of people flirt while denying they do it, and refusing to to tell what they would do if they really flirted, and disparaging others for not knowing the difference.
My experience is also that ordinary people are much more direct and clear in the difference between flirting and friendship, while academic people muddle it.
yet we are supposed to easily tell the difference, with threat of imprisonment for failing.
It can be hard to tell the difference, and it can be easy to mess up when trying to flirt back, but it takes rather more than than simply not telling the difference between flirtation and friendliness for imprisonment. There has to be actual unwelcome steps taken that cross significant lines.
The way the mating dance typically goes is as a series of small escalations. One of the purposes this serves is to let parties make advances without as much risk of everyone seeing them turned down, and lose face. It also lets people make stronger evaluations and back out in the middle gracefully.
Flirtatious talk is not an open invitation for a grabby hands. It is an invitation for further flirtatious talk. It may be an invitation for an invasion of personal space and increasing proximity. This in turn can be invitation for casual, brief, touches on non-sexual body areas. The point of no return, where it’s hard to gracefully back out and pretend nothing was happening, is usually the kiss. That’s usually done as a slow invasion of space, by the initiator, who must watch for the other to either lean in and take position, or lean and turn away. (or occasionally sit wide-eyed and frozen like a deer in the headlights).
Don’t take the example order above too seriously. It’s more complicated than a straight progression as laid out here. In addition to varying cultural attachments of these behaviors, all of them can vary continuously from completely innocent to drenched in erotic meaning, and escalation can happen in any of them at a given time. A clasp-and-release on the upper arm is an escalation from not touching, but far below resting a hand on the thigh.
And really, you can talk and ask for clarification from people you’re flirting with. Heck, asking “are you flirting with me” is itself a reasonable flirt-and-escalate move. Being explicit can kill the mood for some people, but if you’re not actually sure where in this dance you are or which direction it’s headed, it’s generally safer than risking unwanted boundary crossing.
I should also say that with strangers (in a bar say), this whole thing usually starts earlier with looks at someone punctuated with looks away when you see them looking back.
That’s usually done as a slow invasion of space, by the initiator, who must watch for the other to either lean in and take position, or lean and turn away.
If you’re reasonably confident in the other person’s interest, simply announcing “I’m going to kiss you now,” followed by a brief pause, works quite nicely, signals confidence, builds anticipation, and still gives them the opportunity to back out.
If you’re reasonably confident in the other person’s interest, simply announcing “I’m going to kiss you now,” followed by a brief pause, works quite nicely, signals confidence, builds anticipation, and still gives them the opportunity to back out.
Another version: “I’m thinking about kissing you”, and offering your cheek.
And really, you can talk and ask for clarification from people you’re flirting with. Heck, asking “are you flirting with me” is itself a reasonable flirt-and-escalate move. Being explicit can kill the mood for some people, but if you’re not actually sure where in this dance you are or which direction it’s headed, it’s generally safer than risking unwanted boundary crossing.
If you need verbal feedback, you’re probably better off finding out fairly early whether the person you’re flirting with is comfortable with questions or not.
What I’m particularly frustrated about is not telling the difference between flirting and friendliness (the line is blurry and that’s okay) but when specifically it’s okay to escalate to physical touching.
I’m afraid this isn’t going to be helpful, but like everything else, it depends. Touches too can straddle the line between friendliness and flirtation, and mere physical contact needn’t be an escalation at all. A glancing contact with someone’s hand when passing them something isn’t. Prolonging that contact is. Clapping someone on the shoulder is usually just friendly, but adding a squeeze intensifies that.
I should also say that with strangers (in a bar say), this whole thing usually starts earlier with looks at someone punctuated with looks away when you see them looking back.
Surely this is more general than that? I mean, you didn’t say it wasn’t, but ISTM it wouldn’t be worth mentioning if that was what you meant. Did you actually mean it in a more inclusive sense?
Or am I just very wrong about interpreting/doing this? :-/
I didn’t mean to imply that trading glances like this was exclusive to strangers. However: it is a larger portion of the initial signaling, because fewer signals are available than between friends or people otherwise interacting. Secondly, it’s more noticeable in strangers, again because of the relative lack of other interactions and signals.
Oops, that wasn’t the generalization I was thinking of. Sorry; I should have been more explicit. I meant I do this to strangers a lot simply because, e.g., I’m outside and it’s nighttime and I’m trying to determine whether or not they’re someone I know in the first place, which has nothing to do with this.
Oh. Yes, people look at each other a lot, naturally, without any signals being sent. It’s going to be near impossible to tell from short textual descriptions whether what you’re doing is anything like the sexual signaling, but I would suspect not. It’s usually done at a fairly subconscious level
and that a lot of people flirt while denying they do it
Or without even realising. Several years ago an acquaintance on whom I was developing a crush told me she was aware of this; this puzzled me since I thought I hadn’t yet initiated anything like flirting, so I asked how she knew. Then she took my hand and replicated the way in which, a few days before, I had passed her some small object (probably a pen). I didn’t realise I was doing it at the time, but in that casual gesture I was prolonging the physical contact a lot more than necessary, and once put on the receiving side it was bloody obvious what was going on.
There often is not any difference at all between flirting and friendliness. People vary very much in their ways. And yet we are supposed to easily tell the difference, with threat of imprisonment for failing.
The main effects I have seen and experienced, is that flirting typically involve more eye contact, and that a lot of people flirt while denying they do it, and refusing to to tell what they would do if they really flirted, and disparaging others for not knowing the difference.
My experience is also that ordinary people are much more direct and clear in the difference between flirting and friendship, while academic people muddle it.
It can be hard to tell the difference, and it can be easy to mess up when trying to flirt back, but it takes rather more than than simply not telling the difference between flirtation and friendliness for imprisonment. There has to be actual unwelcome steps taken that cross significant lines.
The way the mating dance typically goes is as a series of small escalations. One of the purposes this serves is to let parties make advances without as much risk of everyone seeing them turned down, and lose face. It also lets people make stronger evaluations and back out in the middle gracefully.
Flirtatious talk is not an open invitation for a grabby hands. It is an invitation for further flirtatious talk. It may be an invitation for an invasion of personal space and increasing proximity. This in turn can be invitation for casual, brief, touches on non-sexual body areas. The point of no return, where it’s hard to gracefully back out and pretend nothing was happening, is usually the kiss. That’s usually done as a slow invasion of space, by the initiator, who must watch for the other to either lean in and take position, or lean and turn away. (or occasionally sit wide-eyed and frozen like a deer in the headlights).
Don’t take the example order above too seriously. It’s more complicated than a straight progression as laid out here. In addition to varying cultural attachments of these behaviors, all of them can vary continuously from completely innocent to drenched in erotic meaning, and escalation can happen in any of them at a given time. A clasp-and-release on the upper arm is an escalation from not touching, but far below resting a hand on the thigh.
And really, you can talk and ask for clarification from people you’re flirting with. Heck, asking “are you flirting with me” is itself a reasonable flirt-and-escalate move. Being explicit can kill the mood for some people, but if you’re not actually sure where in this dance you are or which direction it’s headed, it’s generally safer than risking unwanted boundary crossing.
I should also say that with strangers (in a bar say), this whole thing usually starts earlier with looks at someone punctuated with looks away when you see them looking back.
If you’re reasonably confident in the other person’s interest, simply announcing “I’m going to kiss you now,” followed by a brief pause, works quite nicely, signals confidence, builds anticipation, and still gives them the opportunity to back out.
Another version: “I’m thinking about kissing you”, and offering your cheek.
If you need verbal feedback, you’re probably better off finding out fairly early whether the person you’re flirting with is comfortable with questions or not.
What I’m particularly frustrated about is not telling the difference between flirting and friendliness (the line is blurry and that’s okay) but when specifically it’s okay to escalate to physical touching.
I’m afraid this isn’t going to be helpful, but like everything else, it depends. Touches too can straddle the line between friendliness and flirtation, and mere physical contact needn’t be an escalation at all. A glancing contact with someone’s hand when passing them something isn’t. Prolonging that contact is. Clapping someone on the shoulder is usually just friendly, but adding a squeeze intensifies that.
Surely this is more general than that? I mean, you didn’t say it wasn’t, but ISTM it wouldn’t be worth mentioning if that was what you meant. Did you actually mean it in a more inclusive sense?
Or am I just very wrong about interpreting/doing this? :-/
I didn’t mean to imply that trading glances like this was exclusive to strangers. However: it is a larger portion of the initial signaling, because fewer signals are available than between friends or people otherwise interacting. Secondly, it’s more noticeable in strangers, again because of the relative lack of other interactions and signals.
Oops, that wasn’t the generalization I was thinking of. Sorry; I should have been more explicit. I meant I do this to strangers a lot simply because, e.g., I’m outside and it’s nighttime and I’m trying to determine whether or not they’re someone I know in the first place, which has nothing to do with this.
Oh. Yes, people look at each other a lot, naturally, without any signals being sent. It’s going to be near impossible to tell from short textual descriptions whether what you’re doing is anything like the sexual signaling, but I would suspect not. It’s usually done at a fairly subconscious level
Or without even realising. Several years ago an acquaintance on whom I was developing a crush told me she was aware of this; this puzzled me since I thought I hadn’t yet initiated anything like flirting, so I asked how she knew. Then she took my hand and replicated the way in which, a few days before, I had passed her some small object (probably a pen). I didn’t realise I was doing it at the time, but in that casual gesture I was prolonging the physical contact a lot more than necessary, and once put on the receiving side it was bloody obvious what was going on.