On a side note: worth trying to slip some numbers into these articles. you had a list of names, for the emotional argument, but maybe someone at givewell can comment on some good looking numbers worth sharing on the issue of helping/QALY.
“I fell for it, and” could be removed (replace with “I”). Portraying any charity as a “bad charity” is likely to offend that charity. And I firmly believe that EA’s are not trying to do that.
Use of the words “warm fuzzies” wouldn’t go astray.
By comparison, Max told me to consider the Against Malaria Foundation. It buys malaria nets that protect children in developing countries from mosquitoes carrying this deadly disease. Would not my goal of helping kids have good lives be achieved better by protecting them from death?
I had to think hard about why I gave to Make-A-Wish. I realized it was because they had heartwarming stories and great marketing that brought the stories to my attention. Our brains focus on things that come to our attention and not necessarily on things that are actually important for our goals, a thinking error called attentional bias.
I don’t like “by comparison”, as that really is dangerous thinking. And runs the risk of putting “giving to charity” into the too-hard-basket. Signalling that people need to compare charities is going to first cause people to withdraw before it causes them to re-invest.
“Max told me to about the Against Malaria Foundation. AMF buys malaria nets that protect children in developing countries from mosquitoes carrying this deadly disease. I considered my goal of helping kids have good lives and realised the same cost of one Disneyland trip could go towards (Include real numbers) malaria nets.
I had to think hard about why I gave to Make-A-Wish. I realized it was because they had heartwarming stories of fun and happiness. If it was my kid with terminal cancer, I would want other people to be helping me give my child happy memories. Our brains focus on things that come to our attention and not necessarily on things that are actually important for our goals, a thinking error called attentional bias.”
What I failed to consider was the stories of children saved from malaria. I imagined a specific child, Mary, who did not get malaria because of my donation. I envisioned how Mary’s mother rocked Mary to sleep. I imagined Mary’s fifth birthday party, with her family all around. I imagined Mary’s first day of school. I imagined her first kiss. I imagined Mary growing up, becoming an adult, getting married, and having her own kids. My last mental image was of Mary knitting in a rocking chair, enjoying her grandchildren’s laughter.
“What I failed to consider was the stories of children saved from malaria. It’s particularly hard to understand a life where there is a real risk of malaria every day; I just can’t picture it compared to a holiday to Disneyland. I imagined a specific child, Mary, who did not get malaria because of my donation. I envisioned how Mary’s mother rocked Mary to sleep. I imagined Mary’s fifth birthday party, with her family all around (kind of like my own child’s Xth party). I imagined Mary’s first day of school. I imagined her first kiss. I imagined Mary growing up, becoming an adult, getting married, and having her own kids, maybe she grows up in a world where we already cured malaria… My last mental image was of Mary knitting in a rocking chair, enjoying her grandchildren’s laughter.”
Now I have nothing against Make-A-Wish Foundation. They do what they promised to do. It was a failure of my imagination that caused me to make bad decisions. From this experience, I learned that charities that are most effective in achieving my actual goals for donations are often not the ones with the best stories, and thus do not get funded.
“Now I have nothing against Make-A-Wish Foundation. They do what they promised to do. It was a failure of me to consider what goal I actually cared most about, and an attempt to short cut my “warm fuzzy” feelings of needing and wanting to give to a charitable cause by giving to the closest available one. One I could see and imagine, The smiling children, the bigger than life-sized Disney characters. From this thought experience, I learned that charities that are most effective in achieving my actual goals for donations are not necessarily the ones with the best sounding stories, and thus do not get funded. ”
I hope this shows the minor-level of the type of edits needed, and yet how massively it sways the tone of the story, as well as what matters. The use of modelling thinking, the failure to imagine, the repeat on analysing a goal;
I could comment more on more paragraphs; but it takes a fair bit of time to do. I am worried I don’t have the time to make all the improvements that I would like to see in this kind of thing, and can’t give you the kind of help that I really want to. I am not sure how to help better, other than to say; I don’t like where your writing is at; and it needs improving towards the vein of more steel manned content, because you can’t expect the reader to do that for you.
Excellent, this is very helpful, and exactly the kind of thing that will help me improve the writing in the future. Thank you very much for taking the time to do this!
Signalling that people need to compare charities is going to first cause people to withdraw before it causes them to re-invest.
You have many good points overall, but I’m not at all sure that we have a real alternative to “signaling that you need to compare charities”. This is perhaps the most critical part of effective giving, and trying to avoid it just makes it look like you’re pushing your pet cause with no good reasoning behind it. (I mean, just look at the debate within the EA movement. Should you care more about saving lives, promoting animal welfare or averting existential risk from newly-created AIs? It’s a big mess—and the very reason for this is that comparison is no longer helpful here).
Even if the perception that donating effectively is “too hard” makes some people withdraw, that probably doesn’t matter much due to how comparatively ineffective most charity donations are.
I’m not at all sure that we have a real alternative to “signaling that you need to compare charities”.
It’s still about comparing but by the rewrite it’s a bit more implicit comparison not an explicit one. the “compare” step happens in someone’s head (“thinking about where the money might be best spent”), not by being told “you should compare the things you donate to”. It may seem like a subtle change; but I think it makes a difference.
makes some people withdraw
As far as I know—EA’s don’t want this to happen at all… Ineffective is still something.
I like your attitude.
On a side note: worth trying to slip some numbers into these articles. you had a list of names, for the emotional argument, but maybe someone at givewell can comment on some good looking numbers worth sharing on the issue of helping/QALY.
“I fell for it, and” could be removed (replace with “I”). Portraying any charity as a “bad charity” is likely to offend that charity. And I firmly believe that EA’s are not trying to do that.
Use of the words “warm fuzzies” wouldn’t go astray.
I don’t like “by comparison”, as that really is dangerous thinking. And runs the risk of putting “giving to charity” into the too-hard-basket. Signalling that people need to compare charities is going to first cause people to withdraw before it causes them to re-invest.
“Max told me to about the Against Malaria Foundation. AMF buys malaria nets that protect children in developing countries from mosquitoes carrying this deadly disease. I considered my goal of helping kids have good lives and realised the same cost of one Disneyland trip could go towards (Include real numbers) malaria nets.
I had to think hard about why I gave to Make-A-Wish. I realized it was because they had heartwarming stories of fun and happiness. If it was my kid with terminal cancer, I would want other people to be helping me give my child happy memories. Our brains focus on things that come to our attention and not necessarily on things that are actually important for our goals, a thinking error called attentional bias.”
“What I failed to consider was the stories of children saved from malaria. It’s particularly hard to understand a life where there is a real risk of malaria every day; I just can’t picture it compared to a holiday to Disneyland. I imagined a specific child, Mary, who did not get malaria because of my donation. I envisioned how Mary’s mother rocked Mary to sleep. I imagined Mary’s fifth birthday party, with her family all around (kind of like my own child’s Xth party). I imagined Mary’s first day of school. I imagined her first kiss. I imagined Mary growing up, becoming an adult, getting married, and having her own kids, maybe she grows up in a world where we already cured malaria… My last mental image was of Mary knitting in a rocking chair, enjoying her grandchildren’s laughter.”
“Now I have nothing against Make-A-Wish Foundation. They do what they promised to do. It was a failure of me to consider what goal I actually cared most about, and an attempt to short cut my “warm fuzzy” feelings of needing and wanting to give to a charitable cause by giving to the closest available one. One I could see and imagine, The smiling children, the bigger than life-sized Disney characters. From this thought experience, I learned that charities that are most effective in achieving my actual goals for donations are not necessarily the ones with the best sounding stories, and thus do not get funded. ”
I hope this shows the minor-level of the type of edits needed, and yet how massively it sways the tone of the story, as well as what matters. The use of modelling thinking, the failure to imagine, the repeat on analysing a goal;
I could comment more on more paragraphs; but it takes a fair bit of time to do. I am worried I don’t have the time to make all the improvements that I would like to see in this kind of thing, and can’t give you the kind of help that I really want to. I am not sure how to help better, other than to say; I don’t like where your writing is at; and it needs improving towards the vein of more steel manned content, because you can’t expect the reader to do that for you.
Excellent, this is very helpful, and exactly the kind of thing that will help me improve the writing in the future. Thank you very much for taking the time to do this!
You have many good points overall, but I’m not at all sure that we have a real alternative to “signaling that you need to compare charities”. This is perhaps the most critical part of effective giving, and trying to avoid it just makes it look like you’re pushing your pet cause with no good reasoning behind it. (I mean, just look at the debate within the EA movement. Should you care more about saving lives, promoting animal welfare or averting existential risk from newly-created AIs? It’s a big mess—and the very reason for this is that comparison is no longer helpful here).
Even if the perception that donating effectively is “too hard” makes some people withdraw, that probably doesn’t matter much due to how comparatively ineffective most charity donations are.
It’s still about comparing but by the rewrite it’s a bit more implicit comparison not an explicit one. the “compare” step happens in someone’s head (“thinking about where the money might be best spent”), not by being told “you should compare the things you donate to”. It may seem like a subtle change; but I think it makes a difference.
As far as I know—EA’s don’t want this to happen at all… Ineffective is still something.
I agree that subtle change makes a difference, and have updated myself on that.