Since I’ve described how deferring is really bad in several other places, here in THIS post I’m asking, given that we’re going to defer despite its costs, and given that to some extent at the end of the day we do have to defer on many things, what can we do to alleviate some of those problems?
Ok, it looks like part of my motivation for going down this line of thought was based on a misunderstanding. But to be fair, in this post after you asked “What should we have done instead?” with regard to deferring to Eliezer, you didn’t clearly say “we should have not deferred or deferred less”, but instead wrote “We don’t have to stop deferring, to avoid this correlated failure. We just have to say that we’re deferring.” Given that this is a case where many people could have and should have not deferred, this just seems like a bad example to illustrate “given that to some extent at the end of the day we do have to defer on many things, what can we do to alleviate some of those problems?”, leading to the kind of confusion I had.
Also, another part of my motivation is still valid and I think it would be interesting to try to answer why didn’t you (and others) just not defer? Not in a rhetorical sense, but what actually caused this? Was it age as you hinted earlier? Was it just human nature to want to defer to someone? Was it that you were being paid by an organization that Eliezer founded and had very strong influence over? Etc.? And also why didn’t you (and others) notice Eliezer’s strategic mistakes, if that has a different or additional answer?
Also, another part of my motivation is still valid and I think it would be interesting to try to answer why didn’t you (and others) just not defer? Not in a rhetorical sense, but what actually caused this?
Ok, sure, that’s a good question, and also off-topic.
Was it age as you hinted earlier?
Yeah obviously. It’s literally impossible to not defer, all you get to pick is which things you invest in undeferring in what order. I’m exceptionally non-deferential but yeah obviously you have to defer about lots of things.
Was it just human nature to want to defer to someone?
Yes it is also human nature to want to defer. E.g. that’s how you stay synched with your tribe on what stuff matters, how to act, etc.
Was it that you were being paid by an organization that Eliezer founded and had very strong influence over? Etc.?
No, I took being paid as more obligation to not defer.
Anyway, I’m banning you from my posts due to grossly negligent reading comprehension. [Edit: I no longer thing this is a fair characterization.]
I was curious so I read this comment thread, and am genuinely confused why Tsvi is so annoyed by the interaction (maybe I am being dumb and missing something). My interpretation of Wei Dai’s point is the following:
Tsvi is saying something like:
People have a tendency to defer too much (though deferring sometimes is necessary). They should consider deferring less and thinking for themselves more.
When one does defer, it’s good to be explicit about that fact, both to oneself and others.
As an example to illustrate his point, Tsvi mentions a case where he deferred to Yudkowsky. This is used as an example because Yudkowsky is considered a particularly good thinker on the topic Tsvi (and many others) deferred on, but nevertheless there was too much deference.
Wei Dai points out that he thinks the example is misleading, because to him it looks more like being wrong about who it’s worth deferring to, rather than deferring too much. The more general version of his point is “You, Tsvi, are noticing problems that occur from people deferring. However, I think these problems may be at least partially due to them deferring to the wrong people, rather than deferring at all.”
(If this is indeed the point Wei Dai is making, I happen to think Tsvi is more correct, but I don’t think WD’s contribution is meaningless or in bad faith.)
because to him it looks more like being wrong about who it’s worth deferring to,
Except in his first comment he said:
In other words, if you were going to spend your career on AI x-safety, of course you could have become an expert on these questions first.
Which seems to say exactly “defer less” not “defer to a different person”.
Anyway, like I’ve said, what’s annoying is not his thesis, but the fact that he fabricated a disagreement by imagining a position I held (which I didn’t) and then not updating when I clarified (which I did), seemingly in order to talk about his thing that he cares about rather than the topic of the post.
Yeah that’s fair. I didn’t follow the “In other words” sentence (it doesn’t seem to be restating the rest of the comment in other words, but rather making a whole new (flawed) point).
The grandparent explains why Dai was confused about your authorial intent, and his comment at the top of the thread is sitting at 31 karma in 15 votes, suggesting that other readers found Dai’s engagement valuable. If that’s grossly negligent reading comprehension, then would you prefer to just not have readers? That is, it seems strange to be counting down from “smart commenters interpret my words in the way I want them to be interpreted” rather than up from “no one reads or comments on my work.”
suggesting that other readers found Dai’s engagement valuable
This may not be a valid inference, or your update may be too strong, given that my comment got a strong upvote early or immediately, which caused it to land in the Popular Comments section of the front page, where others may have further upvoted it in a decontextualized way.
It looks like I’m not actually banned yet, but will disengage for now to respect Tsvi’s wishes/feelings. Thought I should correct the record on the above first, as I’m probably the only person who could (due to seeing the strong upvote and the resulting position in Popular Comments).
I have banned you from my posts, but my guess is that you’re still allowed to post on existing comment threads with you involved, or something like. I’m happy for you to comment on anything that the LW interface allows you to comment on. [ETA: actually I hadn’t hit “submit” on the ban; I’ve done that now, so Wei Dai might no longer be able to reply on this post at all.]
Possibly I’ll unban you some time in the future (not that anyone cares too much, I presume). But like, this comment thread is kinda wild from my perspective. My current understanding is that you “went down some line of questioning” based on a misunderstanding, but did not state what your line of questioning was and also ignored anything in my responses that wasn’t furthering your “line of questioning” including stuff that was correcting your misunderstanding. Which is pretty anti-helpful.
Ok, it looks like part of my motivation for going down this line of thought was based on a misunderstanding. But to be fair, in this post after you asked “What should we have done instead?” with regard to deferring to Eliezer, you didn’t clearly say “we should have not deferred or deferred less”, but instead wrote “We don’t have to stop deferring, to avoid this correlated failure. We just have to say that we’re deferring.” Given that this is a case where many people could have and should have not deferred, this just seems like a bad example to illustrate “given that to some extent at the end of the day we do have to defer on many things, what can we do to alleviate some of those problems?”, leading to the kind of confusion I had.
Also, another part of my motivation is still valid and I think it would be interesting to try to answer why didn’t you (and others) just not defer? Not in a rhetorical sense, but what actually caused this? Was it age as you hinted earlier? Was it just human nature to want to defer to someone? Was it that you were being paid by an organization that Eliezer founded and had very strong influence over? Etc.? And also why didn’t you (and others) notice Eliezer’s strategic mistakes, if that has a different or additional answer?
Ok, sure, that’s a good question, and also off-topic.
Yeah obviously. It’s literally impossible to not defer, all you get to pick is which things you invest in undeferring in what order. I’m exceptionally non-deferential but yeah obviously you have to defer about lots of things.
Yes it is also human nature to want to defer. E.g. that’s how you stay synched with your tribe on what stuff matters, how to act, etc.
No, I took being paid as more obligation to not defer.
Anyway, I’m banning you from my posts due to grossly negligent reading comprehension. [Edit: I no longer thing this is a fair characterization.]
I was curious so I read this comment thread, and am genuinely confused why Tsvi is so annoyed by the interaction (maybe I am being dumb and missing something). My interpretation of Wei Dai’s point is the following:
Tsvi is saying something like:
People have a tendency to defer too much (though deferring sometimes is necessary). They should consider deferring less and thinking for themselves more.
When one does defer, it’s good to be explicit about that fact, both to oneself and others.
As an example to illustrate his point, Tsvi mentions a case where he deferred to Yudkowsky. This is used as an example because Yudkowsky is considered a particularly good thinker on the topic Tsvi (and many others) deferred on, but nevertheless there was too much deference.
Wei Dai points out that he thinks the example is misleading, because to him it looks more like being wrong about who it’s worth deferring to, rather than deferring too much. The more general version of his point is “You, Tsvi, are noticing problems that occur from people deferring. However, I think these problems may be at least partially due to them deferring to the wrong people, rather than deferring at all.”
(If this is indeed the point Wei Dai is making, I happen to think Tsvi is more correct, but I don’t think WD’s contribution is meaningless or in bad faith.)
Except in his first comment he said:
Which seems to say exactly “defer less” not “defer to a different person”.
Anyway, like I’ve said, what’s annoying is not his thesis, but the fact that he fabricated a disagreement by imagining a position I held (which I didn’t) and then not updating when I clarified (which I did), seemingly in order to talk about his thing that he cares about rather than the topic of the post.
Yeah that’s fair. I didn’t follow the “In other words” sentence (it doesn’t seem to be restating the rest of the comment in other words, but rather making a whole new (flawed) point).
The grandparent explains why Dai was confused about your authorial intent, and his comment at the top of the thread is sitting at 31 karma in 15 votes, suggesting that other readers found Dai’s engagement valuable. If that’s grossly negligent reading comprehension, then would you prefer to just not have readers? That is, it seems strange to be counting down from “smart commenters interpret my words in the way I want them to be interpreted” rather than up from “no one reads or comments on my work.”
This may not be a valid inference, or your update may be too strong, given that my comment got a strong upvote early or immediately, which caused it to land in the Popular Comments section of the front page, where others may have further upvoted it in a decontextualized way.
It looks like I’m not actually banned yet, but will disengage for now to respect Tsvi’s wishes/feelings. Thought I should correct the record on the above first, as I’m probably the only person who could (due to seeing the strong upvote and the resulting position in Popular Comments).
I have banned you from my posts, but my guess is that you’re still allowed to post on existing comment threads with you involved, or something like. I’m happy for you to comment on anything that the LW interface allows you to comment on. [ETA: actually I hadn’t hit “submit” on the ban; I’ve done that now, so Wei Dai might no longer be able to reply on this post at all.]
Possibly I’ll unban you some time in the future (not that anyone cares too much, I presume). But like, this comment thread is kinda wild from my perspective. My current understanding is that you “went down some line of questioning” based on a misunderstanding, but did not state what your line of questioning was and also ignored anything in my responses that wasn’t furthering your “line of questioning” including stuff that was correcting your misunderstanding. Which is pretty anti-helpful.
Did you read the whole comment thread?