I can see seeing it as negative, if you feel like you alone are special. Or perhaps you extend that special-ness to your tribe. Most don’t seem to extend it to their species, tho some do— but even that species-wide uniqueness is violated by computer programs joining the fray. People are existentially worried now, which is just sad, as “the universe is mostly empty space” as it were. There’s plenty of room.
Aren’t people always existentially worried, from cradle to grave?
I think it has to do with the exponential increase in complexity of modern society. Complexity in every aspect, moral complexity, scientific complexity, social complexity, logistic complexity, environmental complexity. Complexity is a key property of information age. They can all be reduced down to increase in information. Complex problems usually require complex solutions. How we deal with information as an individual vs how we deal with information as a collective are very different process. Even though one influences the other and vice versa, the actual mechanism of analysis and implementing solutions behind each are very different as they are usually abstracted away differently, whether you are dealing with psychology or statistics.
It seems like the more things change, the more they stay the same, socially.
Complexity is more a problem of scope and focus, right? Like even the most complex system can be broken down into smaller, less complex pieces— I think? I guess anything that needs to take into consideration the “whole”, if you will, is pretty complex.
I don’t know if information itself makes things more complex. Generally it does the opposite. As long as you can organize it I reckon! =]
Some things change, some things don’t change much. Socially, people don’t really change much. What changes more often is the environment because of ideas, innovation, and inventions. These things may create new systems that we use, different processes that we adopt, but fundamentally, when we socialize in these context as individuals, we rely on our own natural social instincts to navigate the waters. If you think of this as a top down perspective, some layers change more often than others. For example, society as a whole stays more or less the same, but on the level of corporations and how work is done, it has changed dramatically. On the individual level, knowledge has expanded but how we learn doesn’t change as much as what we learn.
Complexity deals mostly with the changing parts. They wouldn’t be complex if they didn’t change and people have had time to learn and adapt. New things added to an existing system also makes the system more complex.
It’s a weird one to think about, and perhaps paradoxicle. Order and chaos are flip sides of the same coin— with some amorphous 3rd as the infinitely varied combinations of the two!
The new patterns are made from the old patterns. How hard is it to create something totally new, when it must be created from existing matter, or existing energy, or existing thoughts? It must relate, somehow, or else it doesn’t “exist”[1]. That relation ties it down, and by tying it down, gives it form.
For instance, some folk are mad at computer-assisted image creation, similar to how some folk were mad at computer-aided music. “A Real Artist does X— these people just push some buttons!” “This is stealing jobs from Real Artists!” “This automation will destroy the economy!”
We go through what seem to be almost the same patterns, time and again: Recording will ruin performances. Radio broadcasts will ruin recording and the economy. Pictures will ruin portraits. Video will ruin pictures. Music Video will run radio and pictures. Or whatever. There’s the looms/Luddites, and perhaps in ancient China the Shang were like “down with the printing press!” [2]
I’m just not sure what constitutes a change and what constitutes a swap. It’s like that Ship of Theseus’s we often speak of… thus it’s about identity, or definitions, if you will. What is new? What is old?
Could complexity really amount to some form a familiarity? If you can relate well with X, it generally does not seem so complex. If you can show people how X relates to Y, perhaps you have made X less complex? We can model massive systems — like the weather, poster child of complexity — more accurately than ever. If anything, everything has tended towards less complex, over time, when looked at from a certain vantage point. Everything but the human heart. Heh.
I’m sure I’m doing a terrible job of explaining what I mean, but perhaps I can sum it up by saying that complexity is subjective/relative? That complexity is an effect of different frames of reference and relation, as much as anything?
And that ironically, the relations that make things simple can also make them complex? Because relations connect things to other things, and when you change one connected thing it can have knock-on effects and… oh no, I’ve logiced myself into knots!
How much does any of this relate to your comment? To my original post?
Does “less complex” == “Good”? And does that mean complexity is bad? (Assuming complexity exists objectively of course, as it seems like it might be where we draw lines, almost arbitrarily, between relationships.)
Could it be that “good” AI is “simple” AI, and that’s all there is to it?
Of course, then it is no real AI at all, because, by definition…
Sheesh! It’s Yin-Yangs all the way down[3]! ☯️🐢🐘➡️♾️
My point is that complexity, no matter how objective a concept, is relative. Things we thought were “hard” or “complex” before, turn out to not be so much, now.
Still with me? Agree, disagree?
Patterns are a way of managing complexity, sorta, so perhaps if we see some patterns that work to ensure “human alignment[1]”, they will also work for “AI alignment” (tho mostly I think there is a wide wide berth betwixt the two, and the later can only exist after of the former).
We like to think we’re so much smarter than the humans that came before us, and that things — society, relationships, technology — are so much more complicated than they were before, but I believe a lot of that is just perception and bias.
If we do get to AGI and ASI, it’s going to be pretty dang cool to have a different perspective on it, and I for one do not fear the future.
Traditionally it’s uncommon (or should be) for youth to have existential worries, so I don’t know about cradle to the grave[1], tho external forces are certainly “always” concerned with it— which means perhaps the answer is “maybe”?
There’s the trope that some of us act like we will never die… but maybe I’m going too deep here? Especially since what I was referring to was more a matter of feeling “obsolete”, or being replaced, which is a bit different than existential worries in the mortal sense[2].
I think this is different from the Luddite feelings because, here we’ve put a lot of anthropomorphic feelings onto the machines, so they’re almost like scabs breaking the picket line or something, versus just automation. The fear I’m seeing is like “they’re coming for our humanity!”— which is understandable, if you thought only humans could do X or Y and are special or whatnot, versus being our own kind of machine. That everything is clockwork seems to take the magic out of it for some people, regardless of how fantastic — and in essence magical — the clocks[3] are.
Personally I’ve always wondered if I’m the only one who “actually” exists (since I cannot escape my own conscious), which is a whole other existential thing, but not unique, and not a worry per se. Mostly just a trip to think about.
There’s the trope that some of us act like we will never die… but maybe I’m going too deep here?
There’s the superficial appearance of that. Yet in fact it signals the opposite, that the fear of death has such a vicegrip on their hearts to the point it’s difficult to not psychoanalyze the writer when reading through their post history.
Signals, and indeed, opposites, are an interesting concept! What does it all mean? Yin and yang and what have you…
Would you agree that it’s hard to be scared of something you don’t believe in?
And if so, do you agree that some people don’t believe in death?
Like, we could define it at the “reality” level of “do we even exist?” (which I think is apart from life & death per se), or we could use the “soul is eternal” one, but regardless, it appears to me that lots of people don’t believe they will die, much less contemplate it. (Perhaps we need to start putting “death” mottoes on all our clocks again to remind us?)
How do you think believing in the eternal soul jives with “alignment”? Do you think there is a difference between aiming to live as long as possible, versus as to live as well as possible?
Does it seem to you that humans agree on the nature of existence, much less what is good and bad therein? How do you think belief affects people’s choices? Should I be allowed to kill myself? To get an abortion? Eat other entities? End a photon’s billion year journey?
When will an AI be “smart enough” that we consider it alive, and thus deletion is killing? Is it “okay” (morally, ethically?) to take life, to preserve life?
To say “do no harm” is easy. But to define harm? Have it programed in[1]? Yeesh— that’s hard!
Am I wrong re: Death? Have you personally feared it all your life?
Frustratingly, all I can speak from is my own experience, and what people have shared with me, and I have no way to objectively verify that anything is “true”.
I am looking at reality and saying “It seems this way to me; does it seem this way to you?”
That— and experiencing love and war &c. — is maybe why we’re “here”… but who knows, right?
Aren’t people always existentially worried, from cradle to grave?
I think it has to do with the exponential increase in complexity of modern society. Complexity in every aspect, moral complexity, scientific complexity, social complexity, logistic complexity, environmental complexity. Complexity is a key property of information age. They can all be reduced down to increase in information. Complex problems usually require complex solutions. How we deal with information as an individual vs how we deal with information as a collective are very different process. Even though one influences the other and vice versa, the actual mechanism of analysis and implementing solutions behind each are very different as they are usually abstracted away differently, whether you are dealing with psychology or statistics.
It seems like the more things change, the more they stay the same, socially.
Complexity is more a problem of scope and focus, right? Like even the most complex system can be broken down into smaller, less complex pieces— I think? I guess anything that needs to take into consideration the “whole”, if you will, is pretty complex.
I don’t know if information itself makes things more complex. Generally it does the opposite.
As long as you can organize it I reckon! =]
Some things change, some things don’t change much. Socially, people don’t really change much. What changes more often is the environment because of ideas, innovation, and inventions. These things may create new systems that we use, different processes that we adopt, but fundamentally, when we socialize in these context as individuals, we rely on our own natural social instincts to navigate the waters. If you think of this as a top down perspective, some layers change more often than others. For example, society as a whole stays more or less the same, but on the level of corporations and how work is done, it has changed dramatically. On the individual level, knowledge has expanded but how we learn doesn’t change as much as what we learn.
Complexity deals mostly with the changing parts. They wouldn’t be complex if they didn’t change and people have had time to learn and adapt. New things added to an existing system also makes the system more complex.
It’s a weird one to think about, and perhaps paradoxicle. Order and chaos are flip sides of the same coin— with some amorphous 3rd as the infinitely varied combinations of the two!
The new patterns are made from the old patterns. How hard is it to create something totally new, when it must be created from existing matter, or existing energy, or existing thoughts? It must relate, somehow, or else it doesn’t “exist”[1]. That relation ties it down, and by tying it down, gives it form.
For instance, some folk are mad at computer-assisted image creation, similar to how some folk were mad at computer-aided music. “A Real Artist does X— these people just push some buttons!” “This is stealing jobs from Real Artists!” “This automation will destroy the economy!”
We go through what seem to be almost the same patterns, time and again: Recording will ruin performances. Radio broadcasts will ruin recording and the economy. Pictures will ruin portraits. Video will ruin pictures. Music Video will run radio and pictures. Or whatever. There’s the looms/Luddites, and perhaps in ancient China the Shang were like “down with the printing press!” [2]
I’m just not sure what constitutes a change and what constitutes a swap. It’s like that Ship of Theseus’s we often speak of… thus it’s about identity, or definitions, if you will. What is new? What is old?
Could complexity really amount to some form a familiarity? If you can relate well with X, it generally does not seem so complex. If you can show people how X relates to Y, perhaps you have made X less complex? We can model massive systems — like the weather, poster child of complexity — more accurately than ever. If anything, everything has tended towards less complex, over time, when looked at from a certain vantage point. Everything but the human heart. Heh.
I’m sure I’m doing a terrible job of explaining what I mean, but perhaps I can sum it up by saying that complexity is subjective/relative? That complexity is an effect of different frames of reference and relation, as much as anything?
And that ironically, the relations that make things simple can also make them complex? Because relations connect things to other things, and when you change one connected thing it can have knock-on effects and… oh no, I’ve logiced myself into knots!
How much does any of this relate to your comment? To my original post?
Does “less complex” == “Good”? And does that mean complexity is bad? (Assuming complexity exists objectively of course, as it seems like it might be where we draw lines, almost arbitrarily, between relationships.)
Could it be that “good” AI is “simple” AI, and that’s all there is to it?
Of course, then it is no real AI at all, because, by definition…
Sheesh! It’s Yin-Yangs all the way down[3]! ☯️🐢🐘➡️♾️
Known unknowns can be related, given shape— unknown unknowns, less so
don’t be afraid of bronze
there is no down in space (unless we mean towards the greatest nearby mass)
Complexity is objectively quantifiable. I don’t think I understand your point. This is an example of where complexity is applied to specific domains.
My point is that complexity, no matter how objective a concept, is relative. Things we thought were “hard” or “complex” before, turn out to not be so much, now.
Still with me? Agree, disagree?
Patterns are a way of managing complexity, sorta, so perhaps if we see some patterns that work to ensure “human alignment[1]”, they will also work for “AI alignment” (tho mostly I think there is a wide wide berth betwixt the two, and the later can only exist after of the former).
We like to think we’re so much smarter than the humans that came before us, and that things — society, relationships, technology — are so much more complicated than they were before, but I believe a lot of that is just perception and bias.
If we do get to AGI and ASI, it’s going to be pretty dang cool to have a different perspective on it, and I for one do not fear the future.
assuming alignment is possible— “how strong of a consensus is needed?” etc.
No, people are not always existentially worried. Some are, sometimes.
I guess it ebbs and flows for the most part.
I didn’t mean it as literally every second of the day.
Traditionally it’s uncommon (or should be) for youth to have existential worries, so I don’t know about cradle to the grave[1], tho external forces are certainly “always” concerned with it— which means perhaps the answer is “maybe”?
There’s the trope that some of us act like we will never die… but maybe I’m going too deep here? Especially since what I was referring to was more a matter of feeling “obsolete”, or being replaced, which is a bit different than existential worries in the mortal sense[2].
I think this is different from the Luddite feelings because, here we’ve put a lot of anthropomorphic feelings onto the machines, so they’re almost like scabs breaking the picket line or something, versus just automation. The fear I’m seeing is like “they’re coming for our humanity!”— which is understandable, if you thought only humans could do X or Y and are special or whatnot, versus being our own kind of machine. That everything is clockwork seems to take the magic out of it for some people, regardless of how fantastic — and in essence magical — the clocks[3] are.
Personally I’ve always wondered if I’m the only one who “actually” exists (since I cannot escape my own conscious), which is a whole other existential thing, but not unique, and not a worry per se. Mostly just a trip to think about.
depending on how invested you are in your work I reckon!
be they based in silicon or carbon
There’s the superficial appearance of that. Yet in fact it signals the opposite, that the fear of death has such a vicegrip on their hearts to the point it’s difficult to not psychoanalyze the writer when reading through their post history.
Signals, and indeed, opposites, are an interesting concept! What does it all mean? Yin and yang and what have you…
Would you agree that it’s hard to be scared of something you don’t believe in?
And if so, do you agree that some people don’t believe in death?
Like, we could define it at the “reality” level of “do we even exist?” (which I think is apart from life & death per se), or we could use the “soul is eternal” one, but regardless, it appears to me that lots of people don’t believe they will die, much less contemplate it. (Perhaps we need to start putting “death” mottoes on all our clocks again to remind us?)
How do you think believing in the eternal soul jives with “alignment”? Do you think there is a difference between aiming to live as long as possible, versus as to live as well as possible?
Does it seem to you that humans agree on the nature of existence, much less what is good and bad therein? How do you think belief affects people’s choices? Should I be allowed to kill myself? To get an abortion? Eat other entities? End a photon’s billion year journey?
When will an AI be “smart enough” that we consider it alive, and thus deletion is killing? Is it “okay” (morally, ethically?) to take life, to preserve life?
To say “do no harm” is easy. But to define harm? Have it programed in[1]? Yeesh— that’s hard!
Avoiding physical harm is a given I think
I presume these questions are rhetorical?
Illustrative perhaps?
Am I wrong re: Death? Have you personally feared it all your life?
Frustratingly, all I can speak from is my own experience, and what people have shared with me, and I have no way to objectively verify that anything is “true”.
I am looking at reality and saying “It seems this way to me; does it seem this way to you?”
That— and experiencing love and war &c. — is maybe why we’re “here”… but who knows, right?