I admit it is an incredibly difficult thing to express in words, because 1) it is not very well observable for others 2) for the individual in question, it is an inner attitude not an external object, and observing them accurate is FAR harder.
One way to verbalize it with some amount of accuracy is that the problem is not selfishness but self-centeredness. The problem is focusing the attention on the self. Often it is a negative one like a nagging doubt of worthlessness but still self-attention. It is better to focus it outward, keeping it on goals, and look on the self only if the self -as a tool—needs changing in order to become more efficient for pursuing the goals. Even if the goals are selfish, still it is better to focus the attention on selfish goals than on the self itself. And of course on unselfish goals even better. E.g. Lama Ole Nydahl: “I think of myself more as a program than as a person. I am what I have promised I will do.” This is a form of dynamic inner peace. No nagging doubts.
It is possible to have goals without having desire, but it is a bit complicated. Again it can easily devolve into arguing the definitions of words, but basically typically a desire means feeling incomplete without something, and it is possible to pursue alturistic or curiosity based goals without this. But it is rare and hard.
These people do not have inner peace. They are not “extremely content with [themselves] as people.” They are, as you say, intensely self-critical.
This is really complicated to express in words. My point is more like that the efficient tennis player is self-critical only so far as it is necessary for self-improvement. Does not dwell or ruminate on it. Does not wallow in masochistic self-hatred. Finds what sucks, fixes it, and instantly takes his attention off his self and puts it back on the goal. This is peaceful enough, close to a “flow”. They are not content with how they played, but they are content with themselves as such, as persons, as overall people, HENCE they don’t feel the need to either act out artificial roles, project false images, excuse away failures or ruminate.
Anchor: now having a heavy ego but being able to control it at will instead of being enslaved by it is a very novel idea to me. It happens?
E.g. Lama Ole Nydahl: “I think of myself more as a program than as a person. I am what I have promised I will do.” This is a form of dynamic inner peace.
On the other hand, if you don’t call yourself a Lama and express the same idea as “I don’t have any actual desires, I feel like I’m just going through the motions of living, doing what I have to do”, you are well on you way to being diagnosed with depression.
You guys keep telling me I am depressed, sooner or later I will even believe it :) Seriously, put yourself into the shoes of say a blue collar guy 100 years ago in the first world. He must eat. Hence he must work. 14 hours a day. And that pretty much described all. Having a life not driven by necessities is pretty big a privilege. Why would we consider the opposite of it depression instead of normal? Or look at animals, they do everything because they must. Only humans really choose. To me being driven by necessities is pretty normal and I don’t really understand why should it be a mental illness. It’s just the lack of luxury basically.
But, yes, it is not really the happiest ways to live, sure, and I think about the essence of your comment it is so that things on the low and and the high end can look very similar when described with words. When you look at the actual experience such as when how much joy people’s faces radiate then not.
I don’t know why but the low end superficially similar to the high type of heuristic works surprisingly well in many human things. For example alpha males don’t chase women, they let them chased by them, beta males chase women, gamma males don’t chase women because they think they are unworthy for their love.
I too don’t know why does this heuristic work but it does. I think it is something like, non-climbers don’t climb mountains, climbers who have already climbed the mountain and are on top don’t climb it either, so it is superficially similar non-climbing, and those climbers who have not yet climbed it are climbing. Or healthy people don’t get healing medical treatments, people dying also don’t really healing treatments just palliative ones, people who are ill but have hope healing get healing treatments. You could lack desires because you are too unhappy or because you are too happy. Something like that.
Also note that you’re coming from the region tainted with Weber’s Protestant work ethic X-)
being driven by necessities is pretty normal and I don’t really understand why should it be a mental illness
Depression isn’t about being driven by necessities. In this particular context “not having desires” is the important part. I understand that from the Buddhist point of view that’s entirely backwards :-)
[Edited to remove incorrectly applied cached language]
There’s a difference between self-obsession and self-worth. The most narcissistic people I know all hate themselves; I couldn’t hazard to guess which way causality flows there. I rarely think of myself, but I doubt you have ever met anybody who thinks as highly of themselves as I do.
The issue is that we have a single word—“ego”—to describe both of these things.
Yes and I don’t even know the history of the word, how the meaning changed. Esp. that it was in Buddhist centers with Tibetan stuff all over it where this word I heard used the most often—yet what business does a Latin word have there at all? It may be a reuse. “Meditation” is actually a reuse and a pretty lossy one—it used to mean “thinking things over”.
I admit it is an incredibly difficult thing to express in words, because 1) it is not very well observable for others 2) for the individual in question, it is an inner attitude not an external object, and observing them accurate is FAR harder.
One way to verbalize it with some amount of accuracy is that the problem is not selfishness but self-centeredness. The problem is focusing the attention on the self. Often it is a negative one like a nagging doubt of worthlessness but still self-attention. It is better to focus it outward, keeping it on goals, and look on the self only if the self -as a tool—needs changing in order to become more efficient for pursuing the goals. Even if the goals are selfish, still it is better to focus the attention on selfish goals than on the self itself. And of course on unselfish goals even better. E.g. Lama Ole Nydahl: “I think of myself more as a program than as a person. I am what I have promised I will do.” This is a form of dynamic inner peace. No nagging doubts.
It is possible to have goals without having desire, but it is a bit complicated. Again it can easily devolve into arguing the definitions of words, but basically typically a desire means feeling incomplete without something, and it is possible to pursue alturistic or curiosity based goals without this. But it is rare and hard.
This is really complicated to express in words. My point is more like that the efficient tennis player is self-critical only so far as it is necessary for self-improvement. Does not dwell or ruminate on it. Does not wallow in masochistic self-hatred. Finds what sucks, fixes it, and instantly takes his attention off his self and puts it back on the goal. This is peaceful enough, close to a “flow”. They are not content with how they played, but they are content with themselves as such, as persons, as overall people, HENCE they don’t feel the need to either act out artificial roles, project false images, excuse away failures or ruminate.
Anchor: now having a heavy ego but being able to control it at will instead of being enslaved by it is a very novel idea to me. It happens?
On the other hand, if you don’t call yourself a Lama and express the same idea as “I don’t have any actual desires, I feel like I’m just going through the motions of living, doing what I have to do”, you are well on you way to being diagnosed with depression.
Whether it’s depression or not depends on whether you are distressed by the thought.
You guys keep telling me I am depressed, sooner or later I will even believe it :) Seriously, put yourself into the shoes of say a blue collar guy 100 years ago in the first world. He must eat. Hence he must work. 14 hours a day. And that pretty much described all. Having a life not driven by necessities is pretty big a privilege. Why would we consider the opposite of it depression instead of normal? Or look at animals, they do everything because they must. Only humans really choose. To me being driven by necessities is pretty normal and I don’t really understand why should it be a mental illness. It’s just the lack of luxury basically.
But, yes, it is not really the happiest ways to live, sure, and I think about the essence of your comment it is so that things on the low and and the high end can look very similar when described with words. When you look at the actual experience such as when how much joy people’s faces radiate then not.
I don’t know why but the low end superficially similar to the high type of heuristic works surprisingly well in many human things. For example alpha males don’t chase women, they let them chased by them, beta males chase women, gamma males don’t chase women because they think they are unworthy for their love.
I too don’t know why does this heuristic work but it does. I think it is something like, non-climbers don’t climb mountains, climbers who have already climbed the mountain and are on top don’t climb it either, so it is superficially similar non-climbing, and those climbers who have not yet climbed it are climbing. Or healthy people don’t get healing medical treatments, people dying also don’t really healing treatments just palliative ones, people who are ill but have hope healing get healing treatments. You could lack desires because you are too unhappy or because you are too happy. Something like that.
No, I don’t think so. See e.g. this.
Also note that you’re coming from the region tainted with Weber’s Protestant work ethic X-)
Depression isn’t about being driven by necessities. In this particular context “not having desires” is the important part. I understand that from the Buddhist point of view that’s entirely backwards :-)
[Edited to remove incorrectly applied cached language]
There’s a difference between self-obsession and self-worth. The most narcissistic people I know all hate themselves; I couldn’t hazard to guess which way causality flows there. I rarely think of myself, but I doubt you have ever met anybody who thinks as highly of themselves as I do.
The issue is that we have a single word—“ego”—to describe both of these things.
Yes and I don’t even know the history of the word, how the meaning changed. Esp. that it was in Buddhist centers with Tibetan stuff all over it where this word I heard used the most often—yet what business does a Latin word have there at all? It may be a reuse. “Meditation” is actually a reuse and a pretty lossy one—it used to mean “thinking things over”.