Why do you concede this? All the suffering you list after this is just as direct.
None of the things I listed afterwards were “suffering” at all. “Suffering” is not “the absence of pleasure”—it is “the antithesis of pleasure”. “Utility” is not synonymous with “enjoyment” or “pleasure”. (Also, please do recall that hedonistic utilitarianism is far from the only form of utilitarianism in existence.)
Saying that torture-without-most-of-the-things-that-make-it-wrong is not so bad might be true,
What.. ? Just… who are you reading in these threads? I am finding myself more and more convinced that you are responding to the writings of someone other than me. You seem to have a persistent habit of introducing notions to our discussions—in a manner as though you were responding to something I had written—that just bear in no way whatsoever to anything I have written or implied by my writings.
I’ll concede that suffering might not be the right word. But everything later in that sentence are essential parts of why torture is wrong. If torture didn’t imply those things (i.e. wasn’t torture), then it would be the right choice compared to dust-specks.
But everything later in that sentence are essential parts of why torture is wrong.
Of course those things are essential parts of why torture is wrong. They would have to be, for my argument to be valid.
If torture didn’t imply those things (i.e. wasn’t torture), then it would be the right choice compared to dust-specks.
Are you simply unaware that the conventional wisdom here on Less Wrong is that the proper answer is to choose to torture one person for fifty years rather than dust-speck 3^^^3 people?
Are you simply unaware that the conventional wisdom here on Less Wrong is that the proper answer is to choose to torture one person for fifty years rather than dust-speck 3^^^3 people?
Yes, that is the conventional wisdom. I agree with you that it is wrong, because the features of torture you describe are why the badness quality of torture cannot be achieved in the sum of huge amounts of a lesser badness.
You seem to think that someone could think dust-specks was the right answer without taking into account those essential parts of torture. Otherwise, why do you think that the secondary effects of allowing torture were not considered in the original debate?
As you noted in your post, people in the original thread objected to choosing torture for reasons that basically reduce to the “non-additive badness” position. For me, that position is motivated by the badness of torture you described in your post. So I read the other commenters charitably to include consideration of the sheer wrongness of torture. I simply can’t see why one would pick dust-specks without that consideration.
Now you say I’m reading them too charitably. I’ve been told before that I do that too much. I’m not sure I agree.
None of the things I listed afterwards were “suffering” at all. “Suffering” is not “the absence of pleasure”—it is “the antithesis of pleasure”. “Utility” is not synonymous with “enjoyment” or “pleasure”. (Also, please do recall that hedonistic utilitarianism is far from the only form of utilitarianism in existence.)
What.. ? Just… who are you reading in these threads? I am finding myself more and more convinced that you are responding to the writings of someone other than me. You seem to have a persistent habit of introducing notions to our discussions—in a manner as though you were responding to something I had written—that just bear in no way whatsoever to anything I have written or implied by my writings.
Why is this?
I’ll concede that suffering might not be the right word. But everything later in that sentence are essential parts of why torture is wrong. If torture didn’t imply those things (i.e. wasn’t torture), then it would be the right choice compared to dust-specks.
Of course those things are essential parts of why torture is wrong. They would have to be, for my argument to be valid.
Are you simply unaware that the conventional wisdom here on Less Wrong is that the proper answer is to choose to torture one person for fifty years rather than dust-speck 3^^^3 people?
Yes, that is the conventional wisdom. I agree with you that it is wrong, because the features of torture you describe are why the badness quality of torture cannot be achieved in the sum of huge amounts of a lesser badness.
You seem to think that someone could think dust-specks was the right answer without taking into account those essential parts of torture. Otherwise, why do you think that the secondary effects of allowing torture were not considered in the original debate?
Because I read the original submission and its conversation thread.
This is a bit of Meta-Comment about commenting:
As you noted in your post, people in the original thread objected to choosing torture for reasons that basically reduce to the “non-additive badness” position. For me, that position is motivated by the badness of torture you described in your post. So I read the other commenters charitably to include consideration of the sheer wrongness of torture. I simply can’t see why one would pick dust-specks without that consideration.
Now you say I’m reading them too charitably. I’ve been told before that I do that too much. I’m not sure I agree.