I don’t think those are good examples to emulate; they were, however, some of the nearer things I’d been exposed to as a teenager, to the sort of mindset I’m arguing for, and some of the nearer things I expect the typical reader here has been exposed to, to what I mean. The following paragraph is where I bring up specific nonfictional examples of the sort of thing I mean (Feynman’s explanation of triboluminescence, explanations of early metalworking, etc.) If I were writing the article now, I’d make that distinction much more clear and explicit; maybe that would be the core point, even.
Possibly I should instead try to get to know and talk with the more curious and conscientious sorts of auto mechanics, inventors, etc, and seek out social contexts where material problems are being investigated and solved routinely instead of posting here.
Robinson Crusoe type stories and time-travel stories are appealing in part because they can inflate the density at which such undersupplied problem-solving stories show up in a single narrative. This doesn’t seem the best, much like I would rather not learn about the ethics of conflict through The Lord of the Rings. Maybe it was unclear that I was trying to report an unmet need and then suggest a solution, much as someone might describe their prior pastry addiction before describing the benefits of a breakfast of fresh fruit.
On the other hand, I think there ought to be room for writing from a confused perspective trying to become unconfused.
I don’t think those are good examples to emulate …
Right, yes, I understand that; I didn’t think that you were suggesting emulating those things, exactly…
Robinson Crusoe type stories and time-travel stories are appealing in part because they can inflate the density at which such undersupplied problem-solving stories show up in a single narrative. This doesn’t seem the best, much like I would rather not learn about the ethics of conflict through The Lord of the Rings.
This is something like my point, yeah.
Basically, one who reads such stories[1] thinks: “there exists a mindset that enables one to solve problems like the ones that occur in these stories!”. And the problem is not that the stories mis-describe this mindset. The problem is that the stories are, to begin with, the reason why this person thinks that there is such a mindset; and that it does indeed allow one to solve “such problems”. But there is (to a first approximation) no such mindset! If you go looking for it elsewhere, you won’t find it. (I also made more or less this point seven years ago.)
So, maybe an even better example than The Lord of the Rings would be The Chronicles of Narnia. Like, if you read the latter, and thought something like “I need a better source from which to learn how to accept Jesus into my life, the better to solve my problems”… that would be a pretty fundamental mistake, right? It’s not just that you’re learning something from a source that is bad at teaching you that thing; the lesson itself is just wrong. (And while there may be nearby lessons which are worth learning, one must be exceptionally careful in identifying them…)
Maybe it was unclear that I was trying to report an unmet need and then suggest a solution, much as someone might describe their prior pastry addiction before describing the benefits of a breakfast of fresh fruit.
Hmm… I’m not sure that I like this analogy. Part of my point is that it’s not a need at all. It would be more like… a heroin addiction. The right conclusion isn’t “I need a better, more healthier way to regularly consume opiates”, is it?
Possibly I should instead try to get to know and talk with the more curious and conscientious sorts of auto mechanics, inventors, etc, and seek out social contexts where material problems are being investigated and solved routinely instead of posting here.
This sounds like (a) an excellent idea, (b) not at all easy to actually do (but by all means go for it!), (c) something which I’d very much like to see you post about, if you did it!
Does this apply to you, in particular? Well… maybe, maybe not; I suspect that it does, or at least did, but if you deny it, I won’t insist otherwise; but absolutely it applies to many others, including many “rationalists”.
I don’t think those are good examples to emulate; they were, however, some of the nearer things I’d been exposed to as a teenager, to the sort of mindset I’m arguing for, and some of the nearer things I expect the typical reader here has been exposed to, to what I mean. The following paragraph is where I bring up specific nonfictional examples of the sort of thing I mean (Feynman’s explanation of triboluminescence, explanations of early metalworking, etc.) If I were writing the article now, I’d make that distinction much more clear and explicit; maybe that would be the core point, even.
Possibly I should instead try to get to know and talk with the more curious and conscientious sorts of auto mechanics, inventors, etc, and seek out social contexts where material problems are being investigated and solved routinely instead of posting here.
Robinson Crusoe type stories and time-travel stories are appealing in part because they can inflate the density at which such undersupplied problem-solving stories show up in a single narrative. This doesn’t seem the best, much like I would rather not learn about the ethics of conflict through The Lord of the Rings. Maybe it was unclear that I was trying to report an unmet need and then suggest a solution, much as someone might describe their prior pastry addiction before describing the benefits of a breakfast of fresh fruit.
On the other hand, I think there ought to be room for writing from a confused perspective trying to become unconfused.
Right, yes, I understand that; I didn’t think that you were suggesting emulating those things, exactly…
This is something like my point, yeah.
Basically, one who reads such stories[1] thinks: “there exists a mindset that enables one to solve problems like the ones that occur in these stories!”. And the problem is not that the stories mis-describe this mindset. The problem is that the stories are, to begin with, the reason why this person thinks that there is such a mindset; and that it does indeed allow one to solve “such problems”. But there is (to a first approximation) no such mindset! If you go looking for it elsewhere, you won’t find it. (I also made more or less this point seven years ago.)
So, maybe an even better example than The Lord of the Rings would be The Chronicles of Narnia. Like, if you read the latter, and thought something like “I need a better source from which to learn how to accept Jesus into my life, the better to solve my problems”… that would be a pretty fundamental mistake, right? It’s not just that you’re learning something from a source that is bad at teaching you that thing; the lesson itself is just wrong. (And while there may be nearby lessons which are worth learning, one must be exceptionally careful in identifying them…)
Hmm… I’m not sure that I like this analogy. Part of my point is that it’s not a need at all. It would be more like… a heroin addiction. The right conclusion isn’t “I need a better, more healthier way to regularly consume opiates”, is it?
This sounds like (a) an excellent idea, (b) not at all easy to actually do (but by all means go for it!), (c) something which I’d very much like to see you post about, if you did it!
Does this apply to you, in particular? Well… maybe, maybe not; I suspect that it does, or at least did, but if you deny it, I won’t insist otherwise; but absolutely it applies to many others, including many “rationalists”.