First of all, the population numbers are complete garbage. This is completely circular. You are just reading out the beliefs about history used to fabricate them. The numbers are generated by people caring about the fall of Rome. The fall of Rome didn’t cause of decline in China. Westerners caring about the fall of Rome caused the apparent decline in China.
Second, there was a tremendous scientific and technological regress in Rome. Not caused by the fall of Rome, but the rise of Rome. There was a continual regress in the Mediterranean from 150BC to at least 600AD. Just look at a list of scientists: it has a stark gap 150BC-50AD. It is more controversial to say that the renaissance 50AD-150AD is a pale shadow of the Hellenistic period, but it is. In 145BC Rome fomented a civil war in Egypt, destroying Alexandria, the greatest center of learning. In 133BC, the king of Pergamon tried to avoid this fate by donating the second center of learning. It was peaceful, but science did not survive.
First of all, the population numbers are complete garbage. This is completely circular. You are just reading out the beliefs about history used to fabricate them. The numbers are generated by people caring about the fall of Rome. The fall of Rome didn’t cause of decline in China. Westerners caring about the fall of Rome caused the apparent decline in China.
I will freely admit that I don’t know how population numbers are estimated in every case, but your analysis of the issue is highly simplistic. Estimates for population decline do not just depend on vague impressions of the significance of grand historical events such as the fall of Rome. Archaeological evidence, estimates of crop yields with contemporary technology on available farmland, surviving records from the time, etc. are all used in forming population estimates.
It’s far from being reliable, but what we know seems clear enough that I would give something like 80% to 90% chance that the first millennium indeed had slower population growth than the first millennium BC. You can’t be certain with such things, but I also don’t agree that the numbers are “complete garbage” and contain no useful information.
Second, there was a tremendous scientific and technological regress in Rome. Not caused by the fall of Rome, but the rise of Rome. There was a continual regress in the Mediterranean from 150BC to at least 600AD. Just look at a list of scientists: it has a stark gap 150BC-50AD.
I think you’re conflating a lack of progress with regression here. I remark in the post that the slowdown in population growth seems to have begun around 200 BC, which is consistent with what you’re saying here if you take it as a statement about growth rates and not about levels. If the pace of new discoveries slows down, that would appear to us as fewer notable scientists as well as slower growth in population, sizes of urban centers, etc.
Aside from that, there are also many alternative explanations of a gap in a list of scientists, e.g. that Rome was comparatively less interested in funding fundamental research compared to the Hellenistic kingdoms. Progress in fundamental sciences doesn’t always correlate so well with economic performance; e.g. the USSR was much better at fundamental science than their economic performance would suggest.
It is more controversial to say that the renaissance 50AD-150AD is a pale shadow of the Hellenistic period, but it is. In 145BC Rome fomented a civil war in Egypt, destroying Alexandria, the greatest center of learning. In 133BC, the king of Pergamon tried to avoid this fate by donating the second center of learning. It was peaceful, but science did not survive.
I don’t know what you’re referring to by “Rome fomented a civil war in Egypt in 145 BC”. 145 BC is when Ptolemy VI died; but as far as I know, there was no single “civil war” following his death, Alexandria was not destroyed, and Rome was not involved directly in Egyptian politics for a long time to come. Alexandria remained one of the major urban centers of the Mediterranean until the 3rd century AD—perhaps even the largest one.
First of all, the population numbers are complete garbage. This is completely circular. You are just reading out the beliefs about history used to fabricate them. The numbers are generated by people caring about the fall of Rome. The fall of Rome didn’t cause of decline in China. Westerners caring about the fall of Rome caused the apparent decline in China.
Second, there was a tremendous scientific and technological regress in Rome. Not caused by the fall of Rome, but the rise of Rome. There was a continual regress in the Mediterranean from 150BC to at least 600AD. Just look at a list of scientists: it has a stark gap 150BC-50AD. It is more controversial to say that the renaissance 50AD-150AD is a pale shadow of the Hellenistic period, but it is. In 145BC Rome fomented a civil war in Egypt, destroying Alexandria, the greatest center of learning. In 133BC, the king of Pergamon tried to avoid this fate by donating the second center of learning. It was peaceful, but science did not survive.
I downvoted this comment for its overconfidence.
I will freely admit that I don’t know how population numbers are estimated in every case, but your analysis of the issue is highly simplistic. Estimates for population decline do not just depend on vague impressions of the significance of grand historical events such as the fall of Rome. Archaeological evidence, estimates of crop yields with contemporary technology on available farmland, surviving records from the time, etc. are all used in forming population estimates.
It’s far from being reliable, but what we know seems clear enough that I would give something like 80% to 90% chance that the first millennium indeed had slower population growth than the first millennium BC. You can’t be certain with such things, but I also don’t agree that the numbers are “complete garbage” and contain no useful information.
I think you’re conflating a lack of progress with regression here. I remark in the post that the slowdown in population growth seems to have begun around 200 BC, which is consistent with what you’re saying here if you take it as a statement about growth rates and not about levels. If the pace of new discoveries slows down, that would appear to us as fewer notable scientists as well as slower growth in population, sizes of urban centers, etc.
Aside from that, there are also many alternative explanations of a gap in a list of scientists, e.g. that Rome was comparatively less interested in funding fundamental research compared to the Hellenistic kingdoms. Progress in fundamental sciences doesn’t always correlate so well with economic performance; e.g. the USSR was much better at fundamental science than their economic performance would suggest.
I don’t know what you’re referring to by “Rome fomented a civil war in Egypt in 145 BC”. 145 BC is when Ptolemy VI died; but as far as I know, there was no single “civil war” following his death, Alexandria was not destroyed, and Rome was not involved directly in Egyptian politics for a long time to come. Alexandria remained one of the major urban centers of the Mediterranean until the 3rd century AD—perhaps even the largest one.