Yeah, wild animal suffering is the other thing I was thinking about. Anyway, that conclusion sounds pretty reasonable (given caring about animal suffering in the first place)… except that it seems to lead to wanting the entire animal kingdom to stop existing (or most of it, anyway). I’m not sure that’s a reductio ad absurdum, or if it is, what it’s a reductio of, exactly (caring about animal suffering? caring about suffering in general? utilitarianism?!), but it should at least give us pause. I don’t think this is a bullet I would bite.
For what it’s worth, given that I do care about humans, and given that some humans seem to be very bothered by the suffering of animals, I would certainly value the reduction of animal suffering for the purpose of making people feel better — although I don’t care about this enough to willingly incur significant personal or societal costs in the bargain. So, for instance, if in vitro meat became available, it tasted the same, cost no more (or only a little more), and made a lot of people feel better, that would, for me, be an important thing to consider.
But I think I value the existence of animal species, and ecologies, for their own sake. I’m not sure how to describe this; scientific curiosity? Valuing biological diversity? In any case, I think that, all else being equal, the extinction of entire kinds of creatures would be a sad outcome. (Although I can see a logical-extreme sort of counterargument: what if we create a new species explicitly for the purposes of easy torturability, and then torture them? They’ve been created from whole cloth simply to give us something to inflict pain on! Should we mourn their extinction? These hypothetical victimcows might be compared to actual cows in relevant ways. Of course, this argument does not work in the case of wild animal species.)
except that it seems to lead to wanting the entire animal kingdom to stop existing (or most of it, anyway).
I’m not sure that has to be the case. One could aim to provide adequate welfare for the entire animal kingdom, though that would require significant resources. Similarly, I think some human lives aren’t worth living, but I don’t think the proper response is genocide.
But, at least for factory farmed animals, I agree that “the existence of these animals can only result in suffering, the outcome where farms animals stop existing is desirable”.
I was merely extrapolating. Or do you think there are relevant differences between wild animals and domesticated ones, such that we could provide welfare, as it were, for wild animals (without them having to hunt/kill anything, I surmise is the implication), but not for domesticated ones? I mean, both of those scenarios are light-years away from feasibility, so I can only assume we’re talking about some in-principle difference. Are we?
I think there is a fundamental difference in wild animals and factory farmed animals—if factory farming were to stop, there would no longer be any factory farmed animals. They are created specifically for that purpose. One can’t provide welfare for factory farmed animals without stopping factory farming, and then there wouldn’t be any factory farmed animals.
Though, I suppose, one could raise animals in ideal welfare conditions and then painlessly kill them for food. I would be fine with that.
There’s something strange with your terms there… are you using “factory farmed” as a descriptor of… kinds (species, etc.) of animals? Or animals that happen to exist in conditions of factory farming? I am confused.
Factory farmed animals are animals that happen to exist in conditions of factory farming. And “factory farming” is meant to convey not just mass production, but also the present quality of farming with regard to animal welfare.
Yeah, wild animal suffering is the other thing I was thinking about. Anyway, that conclusion sounds pretty reasonable (given caring about animal suffering in the first place)… except that it seems to lead to wanting the entire animal kingdom to stop existing (or most of it, anyway). I’m not sure that’s a reductio ad absurdum, or if it is, what it’s a reductio of, exactly (caring about animal suffering? caring about suffering in general? utilitarianism?!), but it should at least give us pause. I don’t think this is a bullet I would bite.
For what it’s worth, given that I do care about humans, and given that some humans seem to be very bothered by the suffering of animals, I would certainly value the reduction of animal suffering for the purpose of making people feel better — although I don’t care about this enough to willingly incur significant personal or societal costs in the bargain. So, for instance, if in vitro meat became available, it tasted the same, cost no more (or only a little more), and made a lot of people feel better, that would, for me, be an important thing to consider.
But I think I value the existence of animal species, and ecologies, for their own sake. I’m not sure how to describe this; scientific curiosity? Valuing biological diversity? In any case, I think that, all else being equal, the extinction of entire kinds of creatures would be a sad outcome. (Although I can see a logical-extreme sort of counterargument: what if we create a new species explicitly for the purposes of easy torturability, and then torture them? They’ve been created from whole cloth simply to give us something to inflict pain on! Should we mourn their extinction? These hypothetical victimcows might be compared to actual cows in relevant ways. Of course, this argument does not work in the case of wild animal species.)
I’m not sure that has to be the case. One could aim to provide adequate welfare for the entire animal kingdom, though that would require significant resources. Similarly, I think some human lives aren’t worth living, but I don’t think the proper response is genocide.
You said:
I was merely extrapolating. Or do you think there are relevant differences between wild animals and domesticated ones, such that we could provide welfare, as it were, for wild animals (without them having to hunt/kill anything, I surmise is the implication), but not for domesticated ones? I mean, both of those scenarios are light-years away from feasibility, so I can only assume we’re talking about some in-principle difference. Are we?
I think there is a fundamental difference in wild animals and factory farmed animals—if factory farming were to stop, there would no longer be any factory farmed animals. They are created specifically for that purpose. One can’t provide welfare for factory farmed animals without stopping factory farming, and then there wouldn’t be any factory farmed animals.
Though, I suppose, one could raise animals in ideal welfare conditions and then painlessly kill them for food. I would be fine with that.
There’s something strange with your terms there… are you using “factory farmed” as a descriptor of… kinds (species, etc.) of animals? Or animals that happen to exist in conditions of factory farming? I am confused.
Factory farmed animals are animals that happen to exist in conditions of factory farming. And “factory farming” is meant to convey not just mass production, but also the present quality of farming with regard to animal welfare.