But I think he needs social support from people who accept him, and in order to feel accepted, he needs to have people who think, if not that he’s right in not believing, at least that he’s doing something respectable and intellectually honest.
Yup. This is very well said. Even if I’m disagreed with, it would at least be nice for the disagree-ers to look at something like my comments on reading through What’s So Great About Christianity (even though I hate to listen to D’Souza, I gave into a friend’s pleading to read his book, and guess what? I also found out that I hate reading D’Souza) or Dubay’s Faith and Certitude (another acquiesced request) and at least respect the effort I put into those books/write-ups.
Or the fact that I probably spend 30-120min a day (at least) reading/thinking about theological arguments in some way shape or form. I don’t know anyone in my circles who could say that, except maybe the leaders of the community who are always preparing talks and such to give… but those are them thinking about theological thoughts to offer from within—my thoughts are of the evaluation type—“Is it true?”
Again, it’s difficult to have been respected for my intellect and general analytical (cough, anal) nature and then to have everyone complain that this subject is different and that what I’m doing is wrong. Heck, I even have someone (and my wife) say that I should have thought more about the implications of non-belief before even starting down this path. It’s challenging dealing with those views when I can’t see much virtue in literally avoiding research just because you’d rather remain ignorant. It would seem that if you seriously considered research in the first place, you already have questions about the validity of what you think to be true.
But it sounds to me like he’s not satisfied with that, and if he wants to be accepted while remaining open and honest, he needs to be able to influence how others think.
I would agree with this. I find it extremely difficult to imagine just “shutting up” about all of this, especially since shutting up may have implications for my children. While I have no problems with religious education, I do have objections to indoctrination. My wife really, really, really wants to “share the faith” with them, but I have an unbelievably hard time not saying something about the fact that “share the faith” is equivalent to teaching-as-true all of the “fun, fluffy” things about religion while explicitly not covering any of the touchy areas.
I really do “get” these areas and why they would be attractive to be able to share with a child. You get to tell them about just how much Jesus-as-teddy-bear loves them ooooh so much. And that he knows every hair on their head. And that he died just for them and to keep that baaaad satan away. And rejoice in any positive outcome because Jesus has just blessed us soooo much in our lives, and how Jesus lives in your heart and gives you the power of the Holy Spirit to be like him.
To heavily saturate a child in this is, in my opinion, unfair. They can’t even begin to contemplate most of the concepts, for one thing. My daughter, if I recall correctly, once said that Jesus was in mommy’s heart in front of me. How can she possibly know what that means? She’s not old enough to question it, though.
On the other hand, my wife isn’t going to try to explain how two people spawned the world population through incest. Or how god was upset about all these wicked people and went on a one-time global killing spree with more water than is contained on earth… and then vowed that that was the last time he would do it even though surely technology and the number of people in the world mean there is more evil today than there was 6k years ago. This stuff isn’t covered.
Hence it’s tough to keep quiet. The tender morsels that a child would just eat up are what is provided; any tough stuff isn’t. Given that the truth of the “morsels” rest on the accuracy of all those “tough subjects,” I don’t think it’s fair to skip covering the dubious stuff for the sake of making them feel warm with the rest.
It’s also interesting to me to contemplate just how much an effect what a child “learns as truth” during early years has on their ability to re-evaluate down the road. As is sometimes attributed to St. Francis Xavier and is a Jesuit motto, “Give me the child for seven years, and I will give you back the man.”
So… in situations like these, it’s not just about keeping docile between my wife and I; we’re approaching an age (daughter 1 = 2.5yrs, daughter 2 = 7 mos) when we need to make calls on this stuff.
Weird—I just went to look but don’t see it, either. I was going to ask but then looked at comment moderation (which I don’t even have enabled) and saw mention of spam… it was, indeed, in my spam box and is now there again. Thanks for the comment.
Yup. This is very well said. Even if I’m disagreed with, it would at least be nice for the disagree-ers to look at something like my comments on reading through What’s So Great About Christianity (even though I hate to listen to D’Souza, I gave into a friend’s pleading to read his book, and guess what? I also found out that I hate reading D’Souza) or Dubay’s Faith and Certitude (another acquiesced request) and at least respect the effort I put into those books/write-ups.
Or the fact that I probably spend 30-120min a day (at least) reading/thinking about theological arguments in some way shape or form. I don’t know anyone in my circles who could say that, except maybe the leaders of the community who are always preparing talks and such to give… but those are them thinking about theological thoughts to offer from within—my thoughts are of the evaluation type—“Is it true?”
Again, it’s difficult to have been respected for my intellect and general analytical (cough, anal) nature and then to have everyone complain that this subject is different and that what I’m doing is wrong. Heck, I even have someone (and my wife) say that I should have thought more about the implications of non-belief before even starting down this path. It’s challenging dealing with those views when I can’t see much virtue in literally avoiding research just because you’d rather remain ignorant. It would seem that if you seriously considered research in the first place, you already have questions about the validity of what you think to be true.
I would agree with this. I find it extremely difficult to imagine just “shutting up” about all of this, especially since shutting up may have implications for my children. While I have no problems with religious education, I do have objections to indoctrination. My wife really, really, really wants to “share the faith” with them, but I have an unbelievably hard time not saying something about the fact that “share the faith” is equivalent to teaching-as-true all of the “fun, fluffy” things about religion while explicitly not covering any of the touchy areas.
I really do “get” these areas and why they would be attractive to be able to share with a child. You get to tell them about just how much Jesus-as-teddy-bear loves them ooooh so much. And that he knows every hair on their head. And that he died just for them and to keep that baaaad satan away. And rejoice in any positive outcome because Jesus has just blessed us soooo much in our lives, and how Jesus lives in your heart and gives you the power of the Holy Spirit to be like him.
To heavily saturate a child in this is, in my opinion, unfair. They can’t even begin to contemplate most of the concepts, for one thing. My daughter, if I recall correctly, once said that Jesus was in mommy’s heart in front of me. How can she possibly know what that means? She’s not old enough to question it, though.
On the other hand, my wife isn’t going to try to explain how two people spawned the world population through incest. Or how god was upset about all these wicked people and went on a one-time global killing spree with more water than is contained on earth… and then vowed that that was the last time he would do it even though surely technology and the number of people in the world mean there is more evil today than there was 6k years ago. This stuff isn’t covered.
Hence it’s tough to keep quiet. The tender morsels that a child would just eat up are what is provided; any tough stuff isn’t. Given that the truth of the “morsels” rest on the accuracy of all those “tough subjects,” I don’t think it’s fair to skip covering the dubious stuff for the sake of making them feel warm with the rest.
It’s also interesting to me to contemplate just how much an effect what a child “learns as truth” during early years has on their ability to re-evaluate down the road. As is sometimes attributed to St. Francis Xavier and is a Jesuit motto, “Give me the child for seven years, and I will give you back the man.”
So… in situations like these, it’s not just about keeping docile between my wife and I; we’re approaching an age (daughter 1 = 2.5yrs, daughter 2 = 7 mos) when we need to make calls on this stuff.
I left a comment on your critique of D’Souza. It’s far enough back that I thought I’d go out of my way to call some attention to it.
Edit: It was there a few minutes ago, but it’s no longer showing up; do only approved comments appear on your blog?
Weird—I just went to look but don’t see it, either. I was going to ask but then looked at comment moderation (which I don’t even have enabled) and saw mention of spam… it was, indeed, in my spam box and is now there again. Thanks for the comment.