Posted above before seeing this. Perhaps this was the answer to my last question, then. That friends are more valuable than me expressing my internal thoughts.
I’ll have to reflect on that. I’m still inclined to disagree, but moreso because we might not be agreeing on definitions. For example, I might look at “telling the truth” and see how were I to be compelled to tell every fat person they were fat or every person I found ugly that they were ugly, that this would be quite undesirable and increase my overall social dissatisfaction.
But I’m looking for suggestions about telling the truth about myself. More on that in a sec.
Similarly, how are you defining “friend”? People to spend time with and who share common interests? I think that’s fair, but what if I added in the clause that a friend should “accept me for who I am”? I’m not saying that you need to accept this definition, but you can see how the advice might change were such a clause included.
In other words, to withhold the truth about myself from others in order to preserve friends seems to reduce to acting like someone else because were my true self to be revealed, I would have no friends.
But, quite possibly, the very definition of a friend is one who knows who you are and sticks around. So… it’s kind of a catch 22. Keep “people-to-spend-time-with” by not “telling the truth”… or “tell the truth” and keep a lesser number of “people who accept who I am”?
In the end, I would absolutely agree that I need friends… but we might be disagreeing about what “type” of such “friend entities” will be most rewarding.
I think for most people there is diminishing marginal benefit to having each additional friend. If this applies to you and you can find many people to spend time with who can accept you for who you are then you should indeed be truthful and open about your atheism rather than pretending to realize that your friends have a point about the “truth” of their faith.
I’m relatively confident that a huge percentage of well-educated Americans are basically atheists, don’t attend church, but also don’t do anything to overtly disagree with their associates’ and families’ religious views. Given that so many people successfully follow this strategy you probably could as well.
The more unusual your beliefs, the harder it is to find people who can accept you for what you are. At some point those of us with what are considered to be bizarre beliefs have to choose between honesty, and having people who wish to spend time with us. I’m in my forties and looking back at my life I think I have got the trade-off wrong by often being too honest about what I really think.
Eliezer’s genius lets him get away with a degree of honesty that most of the rest of us who have strange beliefs can’t afford.
I think for most people there is diminishing marginal benefit to having each additional friend.
That’s probably true; the quality of each relationship decreases if one tries to add more and spend equal amounts of time and energy on each.
If...you can find many people to spend time with who can accept you for who you are then you should indeed be truthful and open about your atheism...
Probably poorly explained by me, I do have a handful of friends in this category. We get together a few times per month, still have a great time together, and pretty much leave religion alone even though they know very well where I stand. Probably 2 of this handful are very close.
Even then, though, there is something missing, as I don’t even like to talk about the “meta” issues brought about by non-belief (mental anguish, difficulties in marriage, etc.) -- it’s easier to do this with non-believers.
I’d actually love to find a “new-best-friend” who is a non-believer, or at least “try it out” if that can be done...
I read the article. Tough situation as well. I can see where you’re coming from. I think I’d think twice if my job or livelihood were at stake. And I do—I stay fairly anonymous online and have never mentioned my employer as I would never want anything somehow tracked back to me by the work arena.
While the social arena is uncomfortable, this is a scenario where I just don’t know if I could live in silence or acquiescence when it comes to actions. I can keep my mouth closed for sure… but to actually “play house” when it comes to things like participating in Mass, singing praise and worship, praying, saying “Amen,” and the like… I don’t think that’s in the same category as being docile and hospitable to contrary opinions.
For example, I might look at “telling the truth” and see how were I to be compelled to tell every fat person they were fat or every person I found ugly that they were ugly, that this would be quite undesirable and increase my overall social dissatisfaction.
Let’s flip that one around. What do you think might happen if you were uninhibited about telling people what you liked about them?
Intuitively, I think I’d make a lot of people happier, but it might depend. If others were around, it might make them jealous. Or if it were the “wrong” sorts of things (attractiveness, how great their breath smelled, or anything else that makes someone a little uncomfortable), it might have the reverse effect.
If you mean it simply and basically as in telling people I really appreciated their suggestion to a problem, their work ethic, skills I admire, their level of compassion, etc… then I think it would make many people happier and feel more valuable.
Posted above before seeing this. Perhaps this was the answer to my last question, then. That friends are more valuable than me expressing my internal thoughts.
I’ll have to reflect on that. I’m still inclined to disagree, but moreso because we might not be agreeing on definitions. For example, I might look at “telling the truth” and see how were I to be compelled to tell every fat person they were fat or every person I found ugly that they were ugly, that this would be quite undesirable and increase my overall social dissatisfaction.
But I’m looking for suggestions about telling the truth about myself. More on that in a sec.
Similarly, how are you defining “friend”? People to spend time with and who share common interests? I think that’s fair, but what if I added in the clause that a friend should “accept me for who I am”? I’m not saying that you need to accept this definition, but you can see how the advice might change were such a clause included.
In other words, to withhold the truth about myself from others in order to preserve friends seems to reduce to acting like someone else because were my true self to be revealed, I would have no friends.
But, quite possibly, the very definition of a friend is one who knows who you are and sticks around. So… it’s kind of a catch 22. Keep “people-to-spend-time-with” by not “telling the truth”… or “tell the truth” and keep a lesser number of “people who accept who I am”?
In the end, I would absolutely agree that I need friends… but we might be disagreeing about what “type” of such “friend entities” will be most rewarding.
I think for most people there is diminishing marginal benefit to having each additional friend. If this applies to you and you can find many people to spend time with who can accept you for who you are then you should indeed be truthful and open about your atheism rather than pretending to realize that your friends have a point about the “truth” of their faith.
I’m relatively confident that a huge percentage of well-educated Americans are basically atheists, don’t attend church, but also don’t do anything to overtly disagree with their associates’ and families’ religious views. Given that so many people successfully follow this strategy you probably could as well.
The more unusual your beliefs, the harder it is to find people who can accept you for what you are. At some point those of us with what are considered to be bizarre beliefs have to choose between honesty, and having people who wish to spend time with us. I’m in my forties and looking back at my life I think I have got the trade-off wrong by often being too honest about what I really think.
Eliezer’s genius lets him get away with a degree of honesty that most of the rest of us who have strange beliefs can’t afford.
Here is an article I wrote for Forbes magazine explaining how excessive honesty came close to costing me my career.
That’s probably true; the quality of each relationship decreases if one tries to add more and spend equal amounts of time and energy on each.
Probably poorly explained by me, I do have a handful of friends in this category. We get together a few times per month, still have a great time together, and pretty much leave religion alone even though they know very well where I stand. Probably 2 of this handful are very close.
Even then, though, there is something missing, as I don’t even like to talk about the “meta” issues brought about by non-belief (mental anguish, difficulties in marriage, etc.) -- it’s easier to do this with non-believers.
I’d actually love to find a “new-best-friend” who is a non-believer, or at least “try it out” if that can be done...
I read the article. Tough situation as well. I can see where you’re coming from. I think I’d think twice if my job or livelihood were at stake. And I do—I stay fairly anonymous online and have never mentioned my employer as I would never want anything somehow tracked back to me by the work arena.
While the social arena is uncomfortable, this is a scenario where I just don’t know if I could live in silence or acquiescence when it comes to actions. I can keep my mouth closed for sure… but to actually “play house” when it comes to things like participating in Mass, singing praise and worship, praying, saying “Amen,” and the like… I don’t think that’s in the same category as being docile and hospitable to contrary opinions.
Let’s flip that one around. What do you think might happen if you were uninhibited about telling people what you liked about them?
Intuitively, I think I’d make a lot of people happier, but it might depend. If others were around, it might make them jealous. Or if it were the “wrong” sorts of things (attractiveness, how great their breath smelled, or anything else that makes someone a little uncomfortable), it might have the reverse effect.
If you mean it simply and basically as in telling people I really appreciated their suggestion to a problem, their work ethic, skills I admire, their level of compassion, etc… then I think it would make many people happier and feel more valuable.
They might reciprocate, as well. Double win.