I would say that she’s in a situation of not owning her reasons, and thus she likes to exert the implications of what these other, older people think and recommend (raising our kids Catholic, me trying until my death bed to believe, etc.) but when pressed on any specific point, she’s unable to speak to the logic or implications because they are not really her arguments/thoughts.
Reminds me of a family friend of mine, the wife of the most religious scientist I know, an astrophysicist who has more books on Christianity than astrophysics. I’ve discussed religion with her a few times, and it seems that her primary motivation for believing is a conviction that people like her husband know what they’re talking about.
If you haven’t already, you might want to bring up the fact that other religions and denominations also have their intelligent, experienced supporters, and taking it as given that the supporters of any one religion know what they’re talking about means concluding that the supporters of every other religion don’t. You have to be able to step outside the faith to give everyone their fair shakes. If she’s motivated more by her stake in the community, it might move her somewhat to consider that other communities believe differently, and go through a similar song and dance with different doctrines at stake. It might help get her thinking “there are other communities I could be part of if I didn’t believe what I believe now.”
I then asked what she would say if I told her that archaeologists have never found any evidence to support anything like the Exodus portrayed in the OT and that some doubt that a figure named “Moses” even existed.
In cases like this, I think it’s better to find out what she expects, ideally something you don’t know about or something she doesn’t suspect you already know about, so that rather than justifying the data post hoc, she can take notice of what she would anticipate given her beliefs being true, and then find out whether reality agrees with that.
Last night we were talking and she brought up how the OT prophecies came true in Jesus. I asked for an example and she said something vague about Moses and Jesus. I said, “Do you mean that like Moses led the Israelites out of slavery from their bondage in Egypt, Jesus leads us out of slavery and bondage to the evil one and sin?” She agreed that this was what she meant.
Since I was exposed to many believers’ views on Christianity well before I started researching the religion myself, I was quite surprised to find out what the old testament messianic prophesies actually entail. Not only did Jesus never fulfill most of them even by generous interpretations, he never claimed in life that he was going to fulfill many of them. The doctrine of the Second Coming actually arose out of attempts to square the scriptural requirements for the messiah with all the things Jesus didn’t accomplish; the messiah has to do them, and Jesus didn’t, so it must be that he’s going to do them when he comes back.
If you bring this up with your wife, you should wait for a time when she’s more receptive to it. It won’t make much difference for her to find out if she hasn’t already made herself aware that she expects otherwise.
I’ve discussed religion with her a few times, and it seems that her primary motivation for believing is a conviction that people like her husband know what they’re talking about.
True, and since widespread refutation of theism isn’t happening (or accepted), there are always Swinburnes, Plantingas, Kreefts, and WLCs to point to.
It might help get her thinking “there are other communities I could be part of if I didn’t believe what I believe now.”
I actually brought this up last night. She could conceive of it being possible that had she been a different religion, she might be as passionate/convicted of that community compared to the current one, but she couldn’t bring herself to do so when I gave an example of a non-religious community with strong rituals and relationships. She said that it would have to be a community with a “purpose outside herself.”
...she can take notice of what she would anticipate given her beliefs being true, and then find out whether reality agrees with that.
Yes, probably a better approach than what I attempted.
I was quite surprised to find out what the old testament messianic prophesies actually entail. Not only did Jesus never fulfill most of them even by generous interpretations...
Well, as you stated below, this is neatly sidestepped by the second coming/afterlife. As far as I know, all or most of the things on that list are said to be occurring at the second coming, or more how I have heard it, are fulfilled in heaven.
If you bring this up with your wife, you should wait for a time when she’s more receptive to it. It won’t make much difference for her to find out if she hasn’t already made herself aware that she expects otherwise.
Indeed, or perhaps as nerzhin suggested, I should just refrain from talking about it at all.
Maybe if I pursue the activities in my “Edit/Update” section of the article above, particularly finishing off some of my reading list and writing my “story” out, it will have a greater impact on her than any direct confrontation/dialog. She’s stated that she doesn’t like all the “atheist blogs” I read and that I’m “unbalanced.” Perhaps were I to display willingness to read theological books, it would remove that objection… or it might reveal that the objection wasn’t real and that she’ll not be happy with my non-belief even if I fulfill such a requirement.
Reminds me of a family friend of mine, the wife of the most religious scientist I know, an astrophysicist who has more books on Christianity than astrophysics. I’ve discussed religion with her a few times, and it seems that her primary motivation for believing is a conviction that people like her husband know what they’re talking about.
If you haven’t already, you might want to bring up the fact that other religions and denominations also have their intelligent, experienced supporters, and taking it as given that the supporters of any one religion know what they’re talking about means concluding that the supporters of every other religion don’t. You have to be able to step outside the faith to give everyone their fair shakes. If she’s motivated more by her stake in the community, it might move her somewhat to consider that other communities believe differently, and go through a similar song and dance with different doctrines at stake. It might help get her thinking “there are other communities I could be part of if I didn’t believe what I believe now.”
In cases like this, I think it’s better to find out what she expects, ideally something you don’t know about or something she doesn’t suspect you already know about, so that rather than justifying the data post hoc, she can take notice of what she would anticipate given her beliefs being true, and then find out whether reality agrees with that.
Since I was exposed to many believers’ views on Christianity well before I started researching the religion myself, I was quite surprised to find out what the old testament messianic prophesies actually entail. Not only did Jesus never fulfill most of them even by generous interpretations, he never claimed in life that he was going to fulfill many of them. The doctrine of the Second Coming actually arose out of attempts to square the scriptural requirements for the messiah with all the things Jesus didn’t accomplish; the messiah has to do them, and Jesus didn’t, so it must be that he’s going to do them when he comes back.
If you bring this up with your wife, you should wait for a time when she’s more receptive to it. It won’t make much difference for her to find out if she hasn’t already made herself aware that she expects otherwise.
True, and since widespread refutation of theism isn’t happening (or accepted), there are always Swinburnes, Plantingas, Kreefts, and WLCs to point to.
I actually brought this up last night. She could conceive of it being possible that had she been a different religion, she might be as passionate/convicted of that community compared to the current one, but she couldn’t bring herself to do so when I gave an example of a non-religious community with strong rituals and relationships. She said that it would have to be a community with a “purpose outside herself.”
Yes, probably a better approach than what I attempted.
Well, as you stated below, this is neatly sidestepped by the second coming/afterlife. As far as I know, all or most of the things on that list are said to be occurring at the second coming, or more how I have heard it, are fulfilled in heaven.
Indeed, or perhaps as nerzhin suggested, I should just refrain from talking about it at all.
Maybe if I pursue the activities in my “Edit/Update” section of the article above, particularly finishing off some of my reading list and writing my “story” out, it will have a greater impact on her than any direct confrontation/dialog. She’s stated that she doesn’t like all the “atheist blogs” I read and that I’m “unbalanced.” Perhaps were I to display willingness to read theological books, it would remove that objection… or it might reveal that the objection wasn’t real and that she’ll not be happy with my non-belief even if I fulfill such a requirement.