Interesting, the whole framing from the start of shame as a virtue was something I’m not used to. I’m more used to the Brene Brown style view that sees the function of shame but mostly views it as unproductive—some quotes as examples:
“Shame corrodes the very part of us that believes we are capable of change.”
“Shame is the most powerful, master emotion. It’s the fear that we’re not good enough.”
“Guilt is just as powerful, but its influence is positive, while shame is destructive. Shame erodes our courage and fuels disengagement.”
“I’m just going to say it: I’m pro-guilt. Guilt is good. Guilt helps us stay on track because it’s about our behavior. It occurs when we compare something we’ve done – or failed to do – with our personal values. ”
Not necessarily the best ones, but that’s what I found in a short search. I think Brown would say that what you’re talking about is mostly guilt, but as you said (and I think she says too), these terms get mixed up all the time and people using different/similar words doesn’t mean they’re talking about different/similar things. So I’m not sure how to exactly divide things between guilt and shame, but I think I mostly agree with the object level of the article, and I like how it touched many different angels.
This is why you can say simply “you are guilty” but shaming takes a more complex construction: “you should be ashamed of yourself.”
Or “Shame on you” (oh, I see you used the phrase later in the article :) )
shame is often accompanied by involuntary physical symptoms (like blushing).
I think blushing is more related to embarrassment (which is itself related to shame, sure, but I think that’s the more direct connection)
If a person desires to do what is wrong, but then has the self-control to refrain from doing it, that’s better than if they lacked self-control — but it would be better yet if that person were temperate enough not to have that bad desire in the first place. Similarly if a person does what is wrong, but then has the sense to be ashamed of it, that’s better than being shameless — but it would be better yet if they hadn’t done the wrong thing in the first place.
If we think of this virtue as a “sense of shame” rather than “shame” plain and simple, we can avoid at least some of Aristotle’s awkwardness.
I agree with this view and also think that giving it a different name instead of shame (like sense-of-shame, or perhaps just guilt) is better.
Interesting, the whole framing from the start of shame as a virtue was something I’m not used to. I’m more used to the Brene Brown style view that sees the function of shame but mostly views it as unproductive—some quotes as examples:
Not necessarily the best ones, but that’s what I found in a short search. I think Brown would say that what you’re talking about is mostly guilt, but as you said (and I think she says too), these terms get mixed up all the time and people using different/similar words doesn’t mean they’re talking about different/similar things. So I’m not sure how to exactly divide things between guilt and shame, but I think I mostly agree with the object level of the article, and I like how it touched many different angels.
Or “Shame on you” (oh, I see you used the phrase later in the article :) )
I think blushing is more related to embarrassment (which is itself related to shame, sure, but I think that’s the more direct connection)
I agree with this view and also think that giving it a different name instead of shame (like sense-of-shame, or perhaps just guilt) is better.