Imagine that you have a community X, which is perfectly rational and perfectly updating. (I am not saying LW is that community; this is just an example.) Of course there would be many people who disagree with X; some of them would be horribly offended by the views of X. Those people would criticize X a lot. So even with a perfectly updating super rationalist community, the worst criticism would come from outside.
Also, most criticism would come from outside simply because there are more non-members than members, and if the group is not secret and is somehow interesting, many non-members will express their opinions about the group.
Therefore, “a lot of the criticism of Less Wrong is made outside of Less Wrong” is not an evidence against rationality of LessWrong, because we would expect the same result both in universes where LW is rational and in universes where LW is irrational.
So even with a perfectly updating super rationalist community, the worst criticism would come from outside.
You write “so”, but that doesn’t follow. You are tacitly assuming that a community has to be held together by shared beliefs, but that does not match genuine rationality, since one cannot predetermie where rational enquiry will lead—to attempt to do so is to introduce confirmation bias., You also seem to think that the “worst” criticism is some kind of vitriolic invective. But what is of concern to genuine rationalists is the best—best argued, most effective—criticism.
Also, most criticism would come from outside simply because there are more non-members than members, and if the group is not secret and is somehow interesting, many non-members will express their opinions about the group.
If the group is discussing specialised topics, then good criticism can only come from those who are familiar with those topics.
Therefore, “a lot of the criticism of Less Wrong is made outside of Less Wrong” is not an evidence against rationality of LessWrong, because we would expect the same result both in universes where LW is rational and in universes where LW is irrational.
You are still missing the point that a genuine rationalist community would invite criticism.
You are still missing the point that a genuine rationalist community would invite criticism.
How specifically?
For example, should we ask all the critics from outside to publish an article on LW about what they think is wrong with LW? Do we also need to upvote such articles, regardless of their merit? Do we also have to write supporting comments to such articles, regardles of whether we agree with their points? Do we have to obsess about the same points again and again and again, never stopping? … What exactly should a community do to pass the “invites criticism” test?
I made the strawmen suggestions because I wasn’t sure what was your point, and I wanted to have also an “upper bound” on what the community is supposed to do to pass the “invites criticism” test. Because defining only the lower bound could easily lead to later responses of type: “Sure, you did X, Y and Z, but you are still not inviting criticism.”
The simplest solution would be to contact people already criticizing LW and invite them to write and publish a single article (without having to create an account, collect karma, learn markdown formatting, and all other trivial inconveniences), assuming the article passes at least some basic filter (no obvious insanity; claims of LW doing something backed up by hyperlinks). There is always a possibility that we would simply not notice some critics, but it can be partially solved by asking “have you noticed any new critic?” in Open Thread.
Somehow I don’t like the “behave like a dick and be rewarded by greater publicity” aspect this would inevitably have, since the most vocal critics of LW are the two or three people from RationalWiki whose typical manner of discussion is, uhm, less than polite. But if we don’t choose them, it could seem from outside like avoiding the strongest arguments. Let’s suppose this is a price we are willing to pay in the name of properly checking our beliefs—especially if it only happens once in a long time.
Seems like a good idea to me; at least worth trying once.
inviting opposing views regularly happens on, eg acaemic philosophy
I guess the invited opponents in this situation are other academical philosophers, not e.g. a random blogger who built their fame by saying “philosophers are a bunch of idiots” and inserting ad-hominems about specific people.
So if we tried in a similar manner to speak with the polite equals, the invited critics would be people from other organizations (like Holden Karnofsky from GiveWell). Which kinda already happened. And it seems like not enough; partially because of the polite argumentation, but also because it only happened once.
Perhaps what we should aim for is something between Holden Karnofsky and our beloved stalkers at RationalWiki. Perhaps we should not ask people to express their opinion about whole LW (unless they volunteer to), but only about some specific aspect. That way they wouldn’t have to read everything to form an opinion (e.g. someone could review only the quantum physics part, ignoring the rest of the sequences).
Do you have a specific suggestion of people that could be invited to write their critism of LW here?
Which would mean there is no genuinely rationalist (inviting updates) community anywhere,
How specifically would it mean that?
Imagine that you have a community X, which is perfectly rational and perfectly updating. (I am not saying LW is that community; this is just an example.) Of course there would be many people who disagree with X; some of them would be horribly offended by the views of X. Those people would criticize X a lot. So even with a perfectly updating super rationalist community, the worst criticism would come from outside.
Also, most criticism would come from outside simply because there are more non-members than members, and if the group is not secret and is somehow interesting, many non-members will express their opinions about the group.
Therefore, “a lot of the criticism of Less Wrong is made outside of Less Wrong” is not an evidence against rationality of LessWrong, because we would expect the same result both in universes where LW is rational and in universes where LW is irrational.
You write “so”, but that doesn’t follow. You are tacitly assuming that a community has to be held together by shared beliefs, but that does not match genuine rationality, since one cannot predetermie where rational enquiry will lead—to attempt to do so is to introduce confirmation bias., You also seem to think that the “worst” criticism is some kind of vitriolic invective. But what is of concern to genuine rationalists is the best—best argued, most effective—criticism.
If the group is discussing specialised topics, then good criticism can only come from those who are familiar with those topics.
You are still missing the point that a genuine rationalist community would invite criticism.
How specifically?
For example, should we ask all the critics from outside to publish an article on LW about what they think is wrong with LW? Do we also need to upvote such articles, regardless of their merit? Do we also have to write supporting comments to such articles, regardles of whether we agree with their points? Do we have to obsess about the same points again and again and again, never stopping? … What exactly should a community do to pass the “invites criticism” test?
Why not? Your other comments are strawmen. But inviting opposing views regularly happens on, eg acaemic philosophy.
Thank you for the specific suggestion!
I made the strawmen suggestions because I wasn’t sure what was your point, and I wanted to have also an “upper bound” on what the community is supposed to do to pass the “invites criticism” test. Because defining only the lower bound could easily lead to later responses of type: “Sure, you did X, Y and Z, but you are still not inviting criticism.”
The simplest solution would be to contact people already criticizing LW and invite them to write and publish a single article (without having to create an account, collect karma, learn markdown formatting, and all other trivial inconveniences), assuming the article passes at least some basic filter (no obvious insanity; claims of LW doing something backed up by hyperlinks). There is always a possibility that we would simply not notice some critics, but it can be partially solved by asking “have you noticed any new critic?” in Open Thread.
Somehow I don’t like the “behave like a dick and be rewarded by greater publicity” aspect this would inevitably have, since the most vocal critics of LW are the two or three people from RationalWiki whose typical manner of discussion is, uhm, less than polite. But if we don’t choose them, it could seem from outside like avoiding the strongest arguments. Let’s suppose this is a price we are willing to pay in the name of properly checking our beliefs—especially if it only happens once in a long time.
Seems like a good idea to me; at least worth trying once.
I guess the invited opponents in this situation are other academical philosophers, not e.g. a random blogger who built their fame by saying “philosophers are a bunch of idiots” and inserting ad-hominems about specific people.
So if we tried in a similar manner to speak with the polite equals, the invited critics would be people from other organizations (like Holden Karnofsky from GiveWell). Which kinda already happened. And it seems like not enough; partially because of the polite argumentation, but also because it only happened once.
Perhaps what we should aim for is something between Holden Karnofsky and our beloved stalkers at RationalWiki. Perhaps we should not ask people to express their opinion about whole LW (unless they volunteer to), but only about some specific aspect. That way they wouldn’t have to read everything to form an opinion (e.g. someone could review only the quantum physics part, ignoring the rest of the sequences).
Do you have a specific suggestion of people that could be invited to write their critism of LW here?