I disagree with most of this but vote it up for being an excellent presentation of a complex and important position that must be addressed (though as noted, I think it can be) and hasn’t been adequately addressed to satisfy (or possibly even to be understood by) all or most LW readers.
Phil, I suggest, that you try to look at Christian and secular children (and possibly those of some other religions) and decide empirically whether they really seem to differ so much in happiness or well being. Looking at people in a wide range of cultures in situations would in general be helpful, but especially that contrast or mostly, I suspect, lack of contrast.
Phil, I suggest, that you try to look at Christian and secular children (and possibly those of some other religions) and decide empirically whether they really seem to differ so much in happiness or well being.
Children are where not to look. Dogs psychologically resemble wolf-pups; they are childlike. Religion, like the breeding of dogs, is neotenous; it allows retention of childlike features into adulthood. To see the differences I’m talking about, you therefore need to look at adults.
Anyway, if you’re asking me to judge based on who is the happiest, you’ve taken the first step down the road to wireheading. Dogs have been genetically reprogrammed to develop in a way that wires their value system to getting a pat on the head from their master.
The basic problem here is how we can simultaneously preserve human values, and not become wireheads, when some people are already wireheads. The religious worldview I spoke of above is a kind of wireheading. Would CEV dismiss it as wireheading? If so, what human values aren’t wireheading? How do we walk the tightrope between wireheads and moral realists? Is there even a tightrope to walk there?
I disagree with most of this but vote it up for being an excellent presentation of a complex and important position that must be addressed (though as noted, I think it can be) and hasn’t been adequately addressed to satisfy (or possibly even to be understood by) all or most LW readers.
Phil, I suggest, that you try to look at Christian and secular children (and possibly those of some other religions) and decide empirically whether they really seem to differ so much in happiness or well being. Looking at people in a wide range of cultures in situations would in general be helpful, but especially that contrast or mostly, I suspect, lack of contrast.
Children are where not to look. Dogs psychologically resemble wolf-pups; they are childlike. Religion, like the breeding of dogs, is neotenous; it allows retention of childlike features into adulthood. To see the differences I’m talking about, you therefore need to look at adults.
Anyway, if you’re asking me to judge based on who is the happiest, you’ve taken the first step down the road to wireheading. Dogs have been genetically reprogrammed to develop in a way that wires their value system to getting a pat on the head from their master.
The basic problem here is how we can simultaneously preserve human values, and not become wireheads, when some people are already wireheads. The religious worldview I spoke of above is a kind of wireheading. Would CEV dismiss it as wireheading? If so, what human values aren’t wireheading? How do we walk the tightrope between wireheads and moral realists? Is there even a tightrope to walk there?