modeling social interactions in the neurotypical way (via empathy) is aversive
Is it too pessimistic to assume that people mostly model other people in order to manipulate them better? I wonder how much of human mental inconsistency is a defense against modeling. Here on Less Wrong we complain that inconsistent behavior makes you vulnerable to Dutch-booking, but in real life, consistent behavior probably makes you even more vulnerable, because your enemies can easily predict what you do and plan accordingly.
I was just writing about my perspective here; see also Simulation Theory (the opposite of “Theory Theory”, believe it or not!). I mean, you could say that “making friends and being nice to them” is a form of manipulation, in some technical sense, blah blah evolutionary game theory blah blah, I guess. That seems like something Robin Hanson would say :-P I think it’s a bit too cynical if you mean “manipulation” in the everyday sense involving bad intent. Also, if you want to send out vibes of “Don’t mess with me or I will crush you!” to other people—and the ability to make credible threats is advantageous for game-theory reasons—that’s all about being predictable and consistent!
Again as I posted just now, I think the lion’s share of “modeling”, as I’m using the term, is something that happens unconsciously in a fraction of second, not effortful empathy or modeling.
Hmmm… If I’m trying to impress someone, I do indeed effortfully try to develop a model of what they’re impressed by, and then use that model when talking to them. And I tend to succeed! And it’s not all that hard! The most obvious strategy tends to work (i.e., go with what has impressed them in the past, or what they say would be impressive, or what impresses similar people). I don’t really see any aspect of human nature that is working to make it hard for me to impress someone, like by a person randomly changing what they find impressive. Do you? Are there better examples?
I have low confidence debating this, because it seems to me like many things could be explained in various ways. For example, I agree that certain predictability is needed to prevent people from messing with you. On the other hand, certain uncertainty is needed, too—if people know exactly when you would snap and start crushing them, they will go 5% below the line; but if the exact line depends on what you had for breakfast today, they will be more careful about getting too close to it.
Is it too pessimistic to assume that people mostly model other people in order to manipulate them better? I wonder how much of human mental inconsistency is a defense against modeling. Here on Less Wrong we complain that inconsistent behavior makes you vulnerable to Dutch-booking, but in real life, consistent behavior probably makes you even more vulnerable, because your enemies can easily predict what you do and plan accordingly.
I was just writing about my perspective here; see also Simulation Theory (the opposite of “Theory Theory”, believe it or not!). I mean, you could say that “making friends and being nice to them” is a form of manipulation, in some technical sense, blah blah evolutionary game theory blah blah, I guess. That seems like something Robin Hanson would say :-P I think it’s a bit too cynical if you mean “manipulation” in the everyday sense involving bad intent. Also, if you want to send out vibes of “Don’t mess with me or I will crush you!” to other people—and the ability to make credible threats is advantageous for game-theory reasons—that’s all about being predictable and consistent!
Again as I posted just now, I think the lion’s share of “modeling”, as I’m using the term, is something that happens unconsciously in a fraction of second, not effortful empathy or modeling.
Hmmm… If I’m trying to impress someone, I do indeed effortfully try to develop a model of what they’re impressed by, and then use that model when talking to them. And I tend to succeed! And it’s not all that hard! The most obvious strategy tends to work (i.e., go with what has impressed them in the past, or what they say would be impressive, or what impresses similar people). I don’t really see any aspect of human nature that is working to make it hard for me to impress someone, like by a person randomly changing what they find impressive. Do you? Are there better examples?
I have low confidence debating this, because it seems to me like many things could be explained in various ways. For example, I agree that certain predictability is needed to prevent people from messing with you. On the other hand, certain uncertainty is needed, too—if people know exactly when you would snap and start crushing them, they will go 5% below the line; but if the exact line depends on what you had for breakfast today, they will be more careful about getting too close to it.
Fair enough :-)