Well, you’re partially right. Eliezer says all the time that rationalists ought to win, and he even uses the italics. Of course, that’s an argument from authority. On my own authority, I also think rationalists should win; it strikes me as irrational to be correct about a belief at the cost of not achieving your preferred state of the world. Surely there are more important things in life than what I personally have going on in my head in terms of abstract propositions.
And, yes, to a certain extent, persuading an annoying maverick to conform by shunning her at parties might interfere with my ability to reach correct beliefs. The question is, though, isn’t that a sacrifice worth making? If I am still perfectly willing to debate this person in private and listen to her point of view, how much of her side of the truth am I really losing? If I attempt to restrain my social boycotts to those who appear to me to be clearly (a) factually incorrect and (b) making logically invalid arguments, how often am I likely to register a false positive and deprive the public of my opponent’s true and valid points of view?
Oh, I see what you mean. You’re saying that there’s not really any disutility created by you shunning them, and there is disutility created by having to talk to them. (I think)
I think that one should avoid penalizing another for their beliefs when other methods of persuasion are available, but did not take that to the next logical step and say “when rational methods (argument / debate / discussion) are not available, should I attempt to convert someone to my point of view anyway?”
I feel this is the question you are asking. If I am wrong, correct me. Anticipating that I am not, I will attempt to answer it thusly: “Yes, if it is truly important enough.”
If, for instance, someone believes that the phenomenon of gravity is due to the flying spaghetti monster’s invisible appendages holding them down, but is still willing to apply all the experimentally determined equations and does not change their life because of this belief (and especially, does not preach this belief), then the disutility this causes, aggregated over all time and all people, is probably less than the disulitity provided by what I will call active coercion (economic sanctions and the like), but probably more than the disutility provided by what I will call passive coercion (avoidance).
If they believe that, say, the Earth is 6,000 years old and floats through space on the back of a turtle, and they preach this in a manner than may convince others to agree, the aggregate disutility is probably greater than the disutility of either active or passive sanctions. (cases will, of course, vary, but I think this is likely to be true)
Anyway, that’s how I think about it. I don’t know etiquette here very well, but if it’s considered rude to raise old threads from the dead, I’d love to continue this by email. My username at case dot edu will reach me.
Well, you’re partially right. Eliezer says all the time that rationalists ought to win, and he even uses the italics. Of course, that’s an argument from authority. On my own authority, I also think rationalists should win; it strikes me as irrational to be correct about a belief at the cost of not achieving your preferred state of the world. Surely there are more important things in life than what I personally have going on in my head in terms of abstract propositions.
And, yes, to a certain extent, persuading an annoying maverick to conform by shunning her at parties might interfere with my ability to reach correct beliefs. The question is, though, isn’t that a sacrifice worth making? If I am still perfectly willing to debate this person in private and listen to her point of view, how much of her side of the truth am I really losing? If I attempt to restrain my social boycotts to those who appear to me to be clearly (a) factually incorrect and (b) making logically invalid arguments, how often am I likely to register a false positive and deprive the public of my opponent’s true and valid points of view?
I’m curious what you think about all this.
By the way, welcome to Less Wrong!
Oh, I see what you mean. You’re saying that there’s not really any disutility created by you shunning them, and there is disutility created by having to talk to them. (I think)
I think that one should avoid penalizing another for their beliefs when other methods of persuasion are available, but did not take that to the next logical step and say “when rational methods (argument / debate / discussion) are not available, should I attempt to convert someone to my point of view anyway?”
I feel this is the question you are asking. If I am wrong, correct me. Anticipating that I am not, I will attempt to answer it thusly: “Yes, if it is truly important enough.”
If, for instance, someone believes that the phenomenon of gravity is due to the flying spaghetti monster’s invisible appendages holding them down, but is still willing to apply all the experimentally determined equations and does not change their life because of this belief (and especially, does not preach this belief), then the disutility this causes, aggregated over all time and all people, is probably less than the disulitity provided by what I will call active coercion (economic sanctions and the like), but probably more than the disutility provided by what I will call passive coercion (avoidance).
If they believe that, say, the Earth is 6,000 years old and floats through space on the back of a turtle, and they preach this in a manner than may convince others to agree, the aggregate disutility is probably greater than the disutility of either active or passive sanctions. (cases will, of course, vary, but I think this is likely to be true)
Anyway, that’s how I think about it. I don’t know etiquette here very well, but if it’s considered rude to raise old threads from the dead, I’d love to continue this by email. My username at case dot edu will reach me.