I’m voting against including this in the Review, at max level, because I think it too-often mischaracterizes the views of the people it quotes. And it seems real bad for a post that is mainly about describing other people’s views and the drawing big conclusions from that data to inaccurately describe those views and then draw conclusions from inaccurate data.
I’d be interested in hearing about this from people who favor putting this post in the review. Did you check on the sources for some of Elizabeth’s claims and think that she described them well? Did you see some inaccuracies but figure that the post is still good enough? Did you trust Elizabeth’s descriptions without checking yourself on what the person said?
I spent a fair amount of time spot checking Elizabeth’s first section, on Martin Soto, which got my attention because it seemed like it could be one of her strongest and it was the first. This claim from Elizabeth in that section seems clearly false: “The charitable explanation here is that my post focuses on naive veganism, and Soto thinks that’s a made-up problem”. The first few paragraphs quoted in this post are sufficient to falsify this interpretation, and the first comment that Martin left on Elizabeth’s post is too. Other parts of the description of Martin’s views which are more central to Elizabeth’s argument also seem off, though sorting them out requires getting more in the weeds. e.g. AFAICT he didn’t say he opposed talking about the whole topic of vegan nutrition; he did say something along the lines of ‘you didn’t say anything false, but I don’t like the way you presented things because it’ll have bad consequences’, but that’s a pretty normal type of opinion—Elizabeth said something like that about Will MacAskill in another post in this series.
Other places where this post felt off include Elizabeth’s description of what people were trying to claim when they brought up the Adventist study, and the claim that this comment by Wilkox involved frame control (it doesn’t look like Wilkox was trying to force their frame on the conversation; rather, it looks like Elizabeth brought a strong frame to the “Change my mind” post, Wilkox didn’t immediately buy into it and was trying to think through the overall frame that Elizabeth brought and the specific concrete claims that Elizabeth made).
There are other examples in the comments, e.g. this comment by Wilkox (currently at +12 net agree-vote, w/o a vote from me) gives 6 examples where the post’s “description of what was said seems to misrepresent the source text”, with some overlap with my examples and some I haven’t looked into.
Before doing these spot checks I was inclined to vote against this post for the review at −1 because it didn’t seem to live up to the title. It was trying to do a hard thing and didn’t pull it off—or at least, I didn’t get a particularly clear sense of the nature and extent of epistemic problems within EA vegan advocacy and had just cached the post as ‘Elizabeth’s upset about EA vegan epistemics’. After digging in to some of it more closely, it looks like it did a worse job than I’d thought, so I’ve moved my vote downward and written this review.
I’m voting against including this in the Review, at max level, because I think it too-often mischaracterizes the views of the people it quotes. And it seems real bad for a post that is mainly about describing other people’s views and the drawing big conclusions from that data to inaccurately describe those views and then draw conclusions from inaccurate data.
I’d be interested in hearing about this from people who favor putting this post in the review. Did you check on the sources for some of Elizabeth’s claims and think that she described them well? Did you see some inaccuracies but figure that the post is still good enough? Did you trust Elizabeth’s descriptions without checking yourself on what the person said?
I spent a fair amount of time spot checking Elizabeth’s first section, on Martin Soto, which got my attention because it seemed like it could be one of her strongest and it was the first. This claim from Elizabeth in that section seems clearly false: “The charitable explanation here is that my post focuses on naive veganism, and Soto thinks that’s a made-up problem”. The first few paragraphs quoted in this post are sufficient to falsify this interpretation, and the first comment that Martin left on Elizabeth’s post is too. Other parts of the description of Martin’s views which are more central to Elizabeth’s argument also seem off, though sorting them out requires getting more in the weeds. e.g. AFAICT he didn’t say he opposed talking about the whole topic of vegan nutrition; he did say something along the lines of ‘you didn’t say anything false, but I don’t like the way you presented things because it’ll have bad consequences’, but that’s a pretty normal type of opinion—Elizabeth said something like that about Will MacAskill in another post in this series.
Other places where this post felt off include Elizabeth’s description of what people were trying to claim when they brought up the Adventist study, and the claim that this comment by Wilkox involved frame control (it doesn’t look like Wilkox was trying to force their frame on the conversation; rather, it looks like Elizabeth brought a strong frame to the “Change my mind” post, Wilkox didn’t immediately buy into it and was trying to think through the overall frame that Elizabeth brought and the specific concrete claims that Elizabeth made).
There are other examples in the comments, e.g. this comment by Wilkox (currently at +12 net agree-vote, w/o a vote from me) gives 6 examples where the post’s “description of what was said seems to misrepresent the source text”, with some overlap with my examples and some I haven’t looked into.
Before doing these spot checks I was inclined to vote against this post for the review at −1 because it didn’t seem to live up to the title. It was trying to do a hard thing and didn’t pull it off—or at least, I didn’t get a particularly clear sense of the nature and extent of epistemic problems within EA vegan advocacy and had just cached the post as ‘Elizabeth’s upset about EA vegan epistemics’. After digging in to some of it more closely, it looks like it did a worse job than I’d thought, so I’ve moved my vote downward and written this review.