Unfortunately, there’s now a group of people who read this thread between 0437 and 0600, who were lead to think that MIRI is miscalibrated, doesn’t care about its goals, but still somehow takes their work too seriously.
That’s what happens when one speculates without evidence.
Unfortunately, there’s now a group of people who read this thread between 0437 and 0600, who were lead to think that MIRI is miscalibrated, doesn’t care about its goals, but still somehow takes their work too seriously.
That’s what happens when one speculates without evidence.
There wasn’t speculation without evidence. A specific set of comments was made. It raised concerns. Those concerns were addressed (in a fairly satisfactory fashion). What you are saying seems very close to saying that we shouldn’t raise concerns because if those concerns are responded to then there’s a chance someone will happen to only see the initial issue and not the response. It should be clear why that’s not a great approach if one wants open discussion and doesn’t want any sort of evaporative cooling of beliefs or similar problems.
Of course there was! Why would you have asked Luke for clarification otherwise? The next three sentences don’t support this claim, either—being “a specific set of comments” does not contradict those comments being vapid speculation.
What you are saying seems very close to saying that we shouldn’t raise concerns because if those concerns are responded to then there’s a chance someone will happen to only see the initial issue and not the response.
Why should there be a response? Does Luke have a moral responsibility to traverse the internet, answering every random NPC who has “concerns”? And in a timely fashion?
There was a whole world of sensible reasons why MIRI would wait and discuss their work more before publishing it, but you went needle-like for an uncharitable one and demanded a response to be proven wrong. That’s not acceptable to me.
It should be clear why that’s not a great approach if one wants open discussion and doesn’t want any sort of evaporative cooling of beliefs or similar problems.
You’re simply wrong. LW does want some evaporative cooling—of trolls and the like.
Of course there was! Why would you have asked Luke for clarification otherwise?
There may be a language distinction here but I’d try to distinguish between speculation as something like “this is probably happening”, and “this sounds like this might be happening, could you please clarify that it isn’t”? It may also help to note based on the comment thread that I apparently wasn’t the only person with this concern. Drethelin made a very similar point. I’m curious what you think we should have done with our concerns. In general, having something discussed in the open is far more useful: you can be pretty sure in any internet conversation that if multiple people interpreted something as potentially implying something, that the set of people who shared a similar interpretation but didn’t post is likely substantially larger.
Why should there be a response? Does Luke have a moral responsibility to traverse the internet, answering every random NPC who has “concerns”? And in a timely fashion?
There’s no question of moral responsibility here or about “traversing the internet” talking to “NPCs”. Luke was active in this thread, made a comment, and the question was directed to the specific details of that comment. I’m also not sure why you are bringing up an issue of what is “timely-fashion”- if someone (either Luke or Qiaochu or someone else who was present at the workshop) responded sometime after, say a day or two later, what damage are you imagining? What is your imagined scenario that leaves you so concerned? And moreover, how would you prefer that concerns be addressed?
Incidentally it may also help to keep in mind that as a matter of politeness and as a matter of actually convincing people effectively, comparing them to NPCs is probably not a great tactic. Not everything Harry James Potter Evans-Verres does is optimal.
It should be clear why that’s not a great approach if one wants open discussion and doesn’t want any sort of evaporative cooling of beliefs or similar problems.
You’re simply wrong. LW does want some evaporative cooling—of trolls and the like.
This may come down to a language issue, but I don’t think that the way evaporative cooling is used refers to all people who leave a community.
Honestly, if you can’t see the distinction between you and drethelin, and think my criticisms of your tone are “language issues,” then I think we’re more or less done. I get that you’ve dropped into formal diction for the karma grab, but I’m allergic to walls of text.
I don’t particularly care about your own model of me, for various and sundry reasons.
However, I would like to note that you’re gravely underestimating the community. On those moments I become caustic and bitter (typically when people wax ridiculous; see above) I tend to be reasonably downvoted. And as well I should—I just value speaking freely over caring how the populace will vote.
On the other hand, I doubt I am “consistently” so. Independent assessments have suggested it is an infrequent vicious cycle exacerbated by the phases of the moon (p > 0.015).
On the gripping hand, I finally have an explanation for why you never e-mailed me about MoreRight! Though that ultimately failed to matter.
Unfortunately, there’s now a group of people who read this thread between 0437 and 0600, who were lead to think that MIRI is miscalibrated, doesn’t care about its goals, but still somehow takes their work too seriously.
That’s what happens when one speculates without evidence.
There wasn’t speculation without evidence. A specific set of comments was made. It raised concerns. Those concerns were addressed (in a fairly satisfactory fashion). What you are saying seems very close to saying that we shouldn’t raise concerns because if those concerns are responded to then there’s a chance someone will happen to only see the initial issue and not the response. It should be clear why that’s not a great approach if one wants open discussion and doesn’t want any sort of evaporative cooling of beliefs or similar problems.
Of course there was! Why would you have asked Luke for clarification otherwise? The next three sentences don’t support this claim, either—being “a specific set of comments” does not contradict those comments being vapid speculation.
Why should there be a response? Does Luke have a moral responsibility to traverse the internet, answering every random NPC who has “concerns”? And in a timely fashion?
There was a whole world of sensible reasons why MIRI would wait and discuss their work more before publishing it, but you went needle-like for an uncharitable one and demanded a response to be proven wrong. That’s not acceptable to me.
You’re simply wrong. LW does want some evaporative cooling—of trolls and the like.
There may be a language distinction here but I’d try to distinguish between speculation as something like “this is probably happening”, and “this sounds like this might be happening, could you please clarify that it isn’t”? It may also help to note based on the comment thread that I apparently wasn’t the only person with this concern. Drethelin made a very similar point. I’m curious what you think we should have done with our concerns. In general, having something discussed in the open is far more useful: you can be pretty sure in any internet conversation that if multiple people interpreted something as potentially implying something, that the set of people who shared a similar interpretation but didn’t post is likely substantially larger.
There’s no question of moral responsibility here or about “traversing the internet” talking to “NPCs”. Luke was active in this thread, made a comment, and the question was directed to the specific details of that comment. I’m also not sure why you are bringing up an issue of what is “timely-fashion”- if someone (either Luke or Qiaochu or someone else who was present at the workshop) responded sometime after, say a day or two later, what damage are you imagining? What is your imagined scenario that leaves you so concerned? And moreover, how would you prefer that concerns be addressed?
Incidentally it may also help to keep in mind that as a matter of politeness and as a matter of actually convincing people effectively, comparing them to NPCs is probably not a great tactic. Not everything Harry James Potter Evans-Verres does is optimal.
This may come down to a language issue, but I don’t think that the way evaporative cooling is used refers to all people who leave a community.
Honestly, if you can’t see the distinction between you and drethelin, and think my criticisms of your tone are “language issues,” then I think we’re more or less done. I get that you’ve dropped into formal diction for the karma grab, but I’m allergic to walls of text.
I don’t particularly care about your own model of me, for various and sundry reasons.
However, I would like to note that you’re gravely underestimating the community. On those moments I become caustic and bitter (typically when people wax ridiculous; see above) I tend to be reasonably downvoted. And as well I should—I just value speaking freely over caring how the populace will vote.
On the other hand, I doubt I am “consistently” so. Independent assessments have suggested it is an infrequent vicious cycle exacerbated by the phases of the moon (p > 0.015).
On the gripping hand, I finally have an explanation for why you never e-mailed me about MoreRight! Though that ultimately failed to matter.