First of all, what are you defining as a “world view” and why is that a useful definition to have? It seems like you’re trying to say “You believe things, beliefs are dogmas, you’re being dogmatic”. That is whole manners of cheating.
Secondly, you’re right. It is possible that the universe was intelligently designed. But the Kolmogorov complexity formulation of Occam’s Razor necessarily requires I assign that a very small probability prior. In order to simulate a universe designed by God, a computer must first simulate God, including why ey would create the universe the way that it is, then simulate that universe, as opposed to just simulating the universe.
FWIW, I have heard a more generalized version of Ghazzali’s argument, which goes something like this:
The way a person sees the world is colored by his preferences and biases. We all have them. You personally place a very high value on empirically reproducible results; this is what you call “truth”, and you are strongly biased in favor of it; your insistence on proper logic and evidence stems from this core belief. There’s nothing wrong with that, but I personally don’t value this specific notion of “truth” as much as you do. Instead, I place a higher value on personal happiness/simplicity/social approval/niceness/whatever. Thus, I choose to believe in an unseen designer/universal consciousness/karma/etc., and it doesn’t matter to me whether there’s any evidence for it or not. Evidence is your thing, not mine.
I’m not endorsing this worldview (and I’m probably not even rendering it properly here), but I do believe it to be pretty much argument-proof. You can’t have a rational discussion with someone who denies the value of rational discussions.
You can’t have a rational discussion with someone who denies the value of rational discussions.
That’s not quite true. You can’t use evidence to convince a machine that runs on anti-induction, but luckily humans are at least somewhat intuitively swayed by evidence, even when they claim not to be.
That’s a good point; humans are not perfect “anti-induction machines”. That said, each person who’d presented this argument to me had spent a lot of mental effort during his or her life to embrace and perfect this worldview. In the same way as a rationalist would train himself to use Bayesian reasoning and distrust his biases, the anti-rationalist trains himself to trust his faith/emotions/ESP/etc., and ignore scientific evidence. Thus, even when the anti-rationalist feels the intuitive sway of evidence, he or she will strive to ignore it.
BTW, I’m using slash-separated lists in my posts because I’d heard this argument multiple times, from multiple people, each of whom had a different set of ancillary beliefs. Thus, it seems like this worldview is not tied to any particular religion or philosophy.
I do believe in the truth of empirically reproducible results. However, other than stating facts I do not see how these results force me to believe in anything. It is my belief system or personal philosophy that makes me conclude a interpretation of those facts.
For example:
Evolution is seen by many people through the lens of materialism/atheism. That means that while studying evolution these people ASSUME the world has no creator and and is purely physical and closed system, free from anything super-natural....and so on.
In that way, any discovery in biology is treated in this interpretation and millions of dollars of research money is used to search for evidence in that way.
Something as so fundamental to us as consciousness and free will is ignored as illusion because it doesnt fit into these peoples world view of a purely mechanical universe. Where did they get this idea that the universe is purely mechanical and material?? NOT from science, it is from their personal philosophy or belief system. Everything in science is interpreted towards that end.
Those who believe in intelligent design also have their assumptions, and will look at evolution in that way. They will tend to be looking for evidence of a super natural involvement in biology, and dedicate their research dollars in that direction.
For you to accept the intelligent design bias and not see your bias is amazing.
Science is neutral, it is your belief system that interpretes these ‘facts’. The real argument is in the varying philosophies, not in the actual data of science.
Where did they get this idea that the universe is purely mechanical and material?? NOT from science...
Let’s imagine that there exist two universes, M and E. Universe M is purely material. Universe E contains etherial things in addition to material ones. However, the material things that E contains are exactly identical to the material things that M contains, down to each individual quark or cosmic string or whatever everything material is made of. The material objects in two universes are perfectly synchronized; for example, whenever a drop of water falls into a pond in universe M, and identical drop falls into an identical pond in E, etc.
If you were accidentally transported into one of these universes, is there any way you could tell which of them you ended up in ?
Evolution is seen by many people through the lens of materialism/atheism. That means that while studying evolution these people ASSUME the world has no creator and and is purely physical and closed system, free from anything super-natural....and so on.
In that way, any discovery in biology is treated in this interpretation and millions of dollars of research money is used to search for evidence in that way.
If we found in every single mammal a long conserved sequence in its genome which had its own extra code to help conserve it and it spelled out in easy substitution code the entire text of some religious text, you can be very sure that every biologist would stand up and take notice. Moreover, your claim doesn’t really follow since there are many religious biologists (like Ken Miller, a very religious Catholic) who are perfectly ok with evolution and the entire standard understanding of biological history.
Your extreme example of evidence in a creator is a valid point, but only to a certain limit. Maybe the grand creator does not want to make things that obvious? Maybe he puts just enough evidence in the universe for people of sincerity for the truth to be lead to the conclusion of design, and not an inch more? The point is we dont know, and the fact that God is not coming down from heaven and telling us he exists is NOT rational evidence that he does not exist and is not the designer of the universe.
As to those Christians who believe in evolution, they have simply developed a personal theology and see science to that end. They are no different from the other religion views, or no religious view.
The real battle is not in science, it is in these ‘world-views’ that cause us to see science in a particular way. I’m not saying we cannot debate what is the truth, only saying that the debate is a little deeper than saying ‘sciences says this’ or ‘science says that’. The debate is more abstract and rational than it is empirical.
The point is we dont know, and the fact that God is not coming down from heaven and telling us he exists is NOT rational evidence that he does not exist and is not the designer of the universe.
Then you think that God coming down from heaven and telling us he exists is rational evidence that he does not exist or is not the designer of the universe? See Absence of Evidence Is Evidence of Absence.
Your extreme example of evidence in a creator is a valid point, but only to a certain limit. Maybe the grand creator does not want to make things that obvious?
Sure, that is possible. Then, in the absence of overwhelming evidence for a designer, we have at least two possible explanations for the evidence that we do possess:
1). Cellular replication in general and DNA in particular is a result of natural processes, specifically {insert long explanation here}. 2). Cellular replication in general and DNA in particular is a result of both natural processes, as well as supernatural intervention by an intelligent designer for whose existence we have no evidence.
Which explanation is more likely to be true, Bayesically speaking (yes I know that’s not a word) ?
I don’t think you need to invoke any sort of Bayesian issues there. Just ask which is simpler. You also are going one step ahead of what is necessary because as far as I can tell, Ghazzali isn’t even ok with theistic evolution.
I want to taboo the word “simpler”, because its meaning is vague. “God did it” is certainly a simpler statement than “Here, read this 500-page biology textbook and find out”.
because as far as I can tell, Ghazzali isn’t even ok with theistic evolution
I think my example still applies, though. Ultimately, we still have purely physical things like fossils, DNA molecules, etc. etc.; as far as I understand, Ghazzali doesn’t dispute the fact that these items exist, only the conclusions we can draw from their existence.
Mathematically you have the same problem whether you believe in God or you don’t. If you say that there is no God you must still account for these two questions:
How did the universe begin from nothing, and why?
If the universe did not begin from nothing, what did it begin from and why is it not considered part of the universe so that we say it is the creator of the universe but not an extension of it?
And if you say 2. you still have to go back to one.
The same mysteries are there whether you believe in God or not. It is your world-view, your faith that leads you to conclude in God, not science. For a Muslim, for example, it is his belief in the words of Prophet Muhammad that he is really communicating with God, and so on. For the atheist/materialist it is his world-view that he rejects any kind of notion that a human being has these powers. And so on...
Science itself is neutral on these issues, it must be seen and interpreted by philosophies and beliefs.
The consistent downvoting of your posts should give you some indication that your arguments are not going to be well received here. I don’t intend to continue this discussion further for the following reasons:
I don’t believe you’re here to genuinely arrive at truer beliefs. I think you’re here to try and convert us.
You did not answer the one direct question I asked you to answer (which, among other things, leads me to conclude the above.)
Other people on this site are far more willing to refute your arguments and will do a better job, and have been doing so.
I don’t think you have enough background (have read enough of the sequences) in why I (or LW in general) believes what we believe for you and I to be able to have a conversation productive enough to be enjoyable to me. Most of the ensuing discussion would probably consist of me spending 15 minutes looking up exactly which of Eliezer’s posts refuted the point you made in your most recent post, and linking you to it, at which point, you probably wouldn’t read what I linked to anyway.
First of all, what are you defining as a “world view” and why is that a useful definition to have? It seems like you’re trying to say “You believe things, beliefs are dogmas, you’re being dogmatic”. That is whole manners of cheating.
Secondly, you’re right. It is possible that the universe was intelligently designed. But the Kolmogorov complexity formulation of Occam’s Razor necessarily requires I assign that a very small probability prior. In order to simulate a universe designed by God, a computer must first simulate God, including why ey would create the universe the way that it is, then simulate that universe, as opposed to just simulating the universe.
FWIW, I have heard a more generalized version of Ghazzali’s argument, which goes something like this:
I’m not endorsing this worldview (and I’m probably not even rendering it properly here), but I do believe it to be pretty much argument-proof. You can’t have a rational discussion with someone who denies the value of rational discussions.
That’s not quite true. You can’t use evidence to convince a machine that runs on anti-induction, but luckily humans are at least somewhat intuitively swayed by evidence, even when they claim not to be.
That’s a good point; humans are not perfect “anti-induction machines”. That said, each person who’d presented this argument to me had spent a lot of mental effort during his or her life to embrace and perfect this worldview. In the same way as a rationalist would train himself to use Bayesian reasoning and distrust his biases, the anti-rationalist trains himself to trust his faith/emotions/ESP/etc., and ignore scientific evidence. Thus, even when the anti-rationalist feels the intuitive sway of evidence, he or she will strive to ignore it.
BTW, I’m using slash-separated lists in my posts because I’d heard this argument multiple times, from multiple people, each of whom had a different set of ancillary beliefs. Thus, it seems like this worldview is not tied to any particular religion or philosophy.
Not quite what I am saying.
I do believe in the truth of empirically reproducible results. However, other than stating facts I do not see how these results force me to believe in anything. It is my belief system or personal philosophy that makes me conclude a interpretation of those facts.
For example:
Evolution is seen by many people through the lens of materialism/atheism. That means that while studying evolution these people ASSUME the world has no creator and and is purely physical and closed system, free from anything super-natural....and so on.
In that way, any discovery in biology is treated in this interpretation and millions of dollars of research money is used to search for evidence in that way.
Something as so fundamental to us as consciousness and free will is ignored as illusion because it doesnt fit into these peoples world view of a purely mechanical universe. Where did they get this idea that the universe is purely mechanical and material?? NOT from science, it is from their personal philosophy or belief system. Everything in science is interpreted towards that end.
Those who believe in intelligent design also have their assumptions, and will look at evolution in that way. They will tend to be looking for evidence of a super natural involvement in biology, and dedicate their research dollars in that direction.
For you to accept the intelligent design bias and not see your bias is amazing.
Science is neutral, it is your belief system that interpretes these ‘facts’. The real argument is in the varying philosophies, not in the actual data of science.
Let’s imagine that there exist two universes, M and E. Universe M is purely material. Universe E contains etherial things in addition to material ones. However, the material things that E contains are exactly identical to the material things that M contains, down to each individual quark or cosmic string or whatever everything material is made of. The material objects in two universes are perfectly synchronized; for example, whenever a drop of water falls into a pond in universe M, and identical drop falls into an identical pond in E, etc.
If you were accidentally transported into one of these universes, is there any way you could tell which of them you ended up in ?
If we found in every single mammal a long conserved sequence in its genome which had its own extra code to help conserve it and it spelled out in easy substitution code the entire text of some religious text, you can be very sure that every biologist would stand up and take notice. Moreover, your claim doesn’t really follow since there are many religious biologists (like Ken Miller, a very religious Catholic) who are perfectly ok with evolution and the entire standard understanding of biological history.
Your extreme example of evidence in a creator is a valid point, but only to a certain limit. Maybe the grand creator does not want to make things that obvious? Maybe he puts just enough evidence in the universe for people of sincerity for the truth to be lead to the conclusion of design, and not an inch more? The point is we dont know, and the fact that God is not coming down from heaven and telling us he exists is NOT rational evidence that he does not exist and is not the designer of the universe.
As to those Christians who believe in evolution, they have simply developed a personal theology and see science to that end. They are no different from the other religion views, or no religious view.
The real battle is not in science, it is in these ‘world-views’ that cause us to see science in a particular way. I’m not saying we cannot debate what is the truth, only saying that the debate is a little deeper than saying ‘sciences says this’ or ‘science says that’. The debate is more abstract and rational than it is empirical.
Then you think that God coming down from heaven and telling us he exists is rational evidence that he does not exist or is not the designer of the universe? See Absence of Evidence Is Evidence of Absence.
Sure, that is possible. Then, in the absence of overwhelming evidence for a designer, we have at least two possible explanations for the evidence that we do possess:
1). Cellular replication in general and DNA in particular is a result of natural processes, specifically {insert long explanation here}.
2). Cellular replication in general and DNA in particular is a result of both natural processes, as well as supernatural intervention by an intelligent designer for whose existence we have no evidence.
Which explanation is more likely to be true, Bayesically speaking (yes I know that’s not a word) ?
I don’t think you need to invoke any sort of Bayesian issues there. Just ask which is simpler. You also are going one step ahead of what is necessary because as far as I can tell, Ghazzali isn’t even ok with theistic evolution.
I want to taboo the word “simpler”, because its meaning is vague. “God did it” is certainly a simpler statement than “Here, read this 500-page biology textbook and find out”.
I think my example still applies, though. Ultimately, we still have purely physical things like fossils, DNA molecules, etc. etc.; as far as I understand, Ghazzali doesn’t dispute the fact that these items exist, only the conclusions we can draw from their existence.
Mathematically you have the same problem whether you believe in God or you don’t. If you say that there is no God you must still account for these two questions:
How did the universe begin from nothing, and why?
If the universe did not begin from nothing, what did it begin from and why is it not considered part of the universe so that we say it is the creator of the universe but not an extension of it?
And if you say 2. you still have to go back to one.
The same mysteries are there whether you believe in God or not. It is your world-view, your faith that leads you to conclude in God, not science. For a Muslim, for example, it is his belief in the words of Prophet Muhammad that he is really communicating with God, and so on. For the atheist/materialist it is his world-view that he rejects any kind of notion that a human being has these powers. And so on...
Science itself is neutral on these issues, it must be seen and interpreted by philosophies and beliefs.
The consistent downvoting of your posts should give you some indication that your arguments are not going to be well received here. I don’t intend to continue this discussion further for the following reasons:
I don’t believe you’re here to genuinely arrive at truer beliefs. I think you’re here to try and convert us.
You did not answer the one direct question I asked you to answer (which, among other things, leads me to conclude the above.)
Other people on this site are far more willing to refute your arguments and will do a better job, and have been doing so.
I don’t think you have enough background (have read enough of the sequences) in why I (or LW in general) believes what we believe for you and I to be able to have a conversation productive enough to be enjoyable to me. Most of the ensuing discussion would probably consist of me spending 15 minutes looking up exactly which of Eliezer’s posts refuted the point you made in your most recent post, and linking you to it, at which point, you probably wouldn’t read what I linked to anyway.