You did not even state whether the Earman book mentions Popper. Because, I took it, you don’t know. so … wtf? that’s the best you can do?
My apologies. I would have thought it was clear that when one recommends a book one is doing so because it has material that is relevant that one is talking about. Yes, the he discusses various ideas due to Popper.
note that, ironically, your comment here complaining that you didn’t repeatedly pressure is itself pressure, and not for the first time...
I think there may be some definitional issues here. A handful of remarks suggesting one read a certain book would not be what most people would call pressure. Moreover, given the negative connotations of pressure, it worries me that you find that to be pressure. Conversations are not battles. And suggesting that one might want to read a book should not be pressure. If one feels that way, it indicates that one might be too emotionally invested in the claim.
And ask yourself, does it really seem likely to you that not a single person on LW would ever have made a point to you that turned out to be correct?
When they have policies like resorting to authoritarian, ad hominem arguments rather than substance ones …
And is that what you see here? Again, most people don’t seem to see that. Take an outside view; it is possible that you are simply too emotionally involved?
Let me pose a counter question: when you contradict several geniuses such as Popper, Deutsch, Feynman (e.g. about caring what other people think), and Rand, does that worry you? I don’t particularly think you should say “yes” (maybe mild worry causing only an interest in investigating a bit more, not conceding). The point is your style of argument can easily be used against you here. And against most people for most stuff.
I don’t have reason to think that Rand is a genius. But, let’s say I did, and let’s say the other three are geniuses. Should one in that context, be worried that their opinions contradict my own? Let’s use a more extreme example, Jonathan Sarfati is an accomplished chemist, a highly ranked chess master, and a young earth creationist. Should I be worried by that? The answer I think is yes. But, at the same time, even if I were only vaguely aware of Sarfati’s existence, would I need to read everything by him to decide that he’s wrong? No. In this case, having read some of their material, and having read your arguments for why I should read it, it is falling more and more into the Sarfati category. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if there’s something I’m wrong about that Popper or Deutsch gets right, and if I read everything Popper had to say and read everything Deutsch had to say and didn’t come away with any changed opinions, that should cause me to doubt my rationality. Ironically, BoI was already on my intended reading list before interacting with you. It has no dropped farther down on my priority list because of these conversation.
Can’t you see that that’s irrational? Karma scores are not important, arguments are.
I don’t think you understood why I made that remark. I have an interest in cooperating with other humans. We have a karma system for among other reasons to decide whether or not people want to read more of something. Since some people have already expressed a disinterest in this discussion, I’m explicitly inviting them to show that disinterest so I know not to waste their time. If it helps, imagine this conversation occurring on a My Little Pony forum with a karma system. Do you see why someone would want to downvote in that context a Popper v. Bayes discussion? Do you see how listening in that context to such preferences could be rational?
My apologies. I would have thought it was clear that when one recommends a book one is doing so because it has material that is relevant that one is talking about. Yes, the he discusses various ideas due to Popper.
That’s ambiguous. Does he discuss Popper directly? Or, say, some of Popper’s students? Does the book have, say, more than 20 quotes of Popper, with commentary? More than 10? Any detailed, serious discuss of Popper? If it does, how do you know that having not read it? Is the discussion of Popper tainted by the common myths?
Some Less Wrongers recommend stuff that doesn’t have the specific stuff they claim it does have, e.g. the Mathematical Statistics book. IME it’s quite common that recommendations don’t have what they are supposed to even when people directly claim it’s there.
Take an outside view; it is possible that you are simply too emotionally involved?
You seem to think I believe this stuff because I’m a beginner; that’s an insulting non-argument. I already know how to take outside views, I am not emotionally involved. I already know how to deal with such issues, and have done so.
None of your post here really has any substance. It’s also psychological and meta topics you’ve brought up. Maybe I shouldn’t have fed you any replies at all about them. But that’s why I’m not answering the rest.
That’s ambiguous. Does he discuss Popper directly? Or, say, some of Popper’s students? Does the book have, say, more than 20 quotes of Popper, with commentary?
Please don’t move goalposts and pretend they were there all along. You asked whether he mentioned Popper, to which I answered yes. I don’t know the answers to your above questions, and they really don’t have anything to do with the central points, the claims that I “pressured” you to read Earman based on his being a professional.
Take an outside view; it is possible that you are simply too emotionally involved?
You seem to think I believe this stuff because I’m a beginner; that’s an insulting non-argument. I already know how to take outside views, I am not emotionally involved. I already know how to deal with such issues, and have done so.
I’m also confused about where you are getting any reason to think that I think that you believe what you do because you are a “beginner”- it doesn’t help matters that I’m not sure what you mean by that term in this context.
But if you are very sure that you don’t have any emotional aspect coming into play then I will try to refrain from suggesting otherwise until we get more concrete data such as per Jim’s suggestion.
I have never been interested in people who mention Popper but people who address his ideas (well). I don’t know why you think I’m moving goalposts.
There’s a difference between “Outside View” and “outside view”. I certainly know what it means to look at things from another perspective which is what the non-caps one means (or at least that’s how I read it).
I am not “very sure” about anything; that’s not how it works; but I think pretty much everything I say here you can take as “very sure” in your worldview.
You did not even state whether the Earman book mentions Popper. Because, I took it, you don’t know. so … wtf? that’s the best you can do?
My apologies. I would have thought it was clear that when one recommends a book one is doing so because it has material that is relevant that one is talking about. Yes, the he discusses various ideas due to Popper.
That’s ambiguous. Does he discuss Popper directly? Or, say, some of Popper’s students? Does the book have, say, more than 20 quotes of Popper, with commentary? More than 10? Any detailed, serious discuss of Popper? If it does, how do you know that having not read it? Is the discussion of Popper tainted by the common myths?
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Moving the goalposts, also known as raising the bar, is an informal logically fallacious argument in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. In other words, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt. This attempts to leave the impression that an argument had a fair hearing while actually reaching a preordained conclusion.
Stop being a jerk. He didn’t even state whether it mentions Popper, let alone whether it does more than mention. The first thing wasn’t a goal post. You’re being super pedantic but you’re also wrong. It’s not charming.
My apologies. I would have thought it was clear that when one recommends a book one is doing so because it has material that is relevant that one is talking about. Yes, the he discusses various ideas due to Popper.
I think there may be some definitional issues here. A handful of remarks suggesting one read a certain book would not be what most people would call pressure. Moreover, given the negative connotations of pressure, it worries me that you find that to be pressure. Conversations are not battles. And suggesting that one might want to read a book should not be pressure. If one feels that way, it indicates that one might be too emotionally invested in the claim.
And is that what you see here? Again, most people don’t seem to see that. Take an outside view; it is possible that you are simply too emotionally involved?
I don’t have reason to think that Rand is a genius. But, let’s say I did, and let’s say the other three are geniuses. Should one in that context, be worried that their opinions contradict my own? Let’s use a more extreme example, Jonathan Sarfati is an accomplished chemist, a highly ranked chess master, and a young earth creationist. Should I be worried by that? The answer I think is yes. But, at the same time, even if I were only vaguely aware of Sarfati’s existence, would I need to read everything by him to decide that he’s wrong? No. In this case, having read some of their material, and having read your arguments for why I should read it, it is falling more and more into the Sarfati category. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if there’s something I’m wrong about that Popper or Deutsch gets right, and if I read everything Popper had to say and read everything Deutsch had to say and didn’t come away with any changed opinions, that should cause me to doubt my rationality. Ironically, BoI was already on my intended reading list before interacting with you. It has no dropped farther down on my priority list because of these conversation.
I don’t think you understood why I made that remark. I have an interest in cooperating with other humans. We have a karma system for among other reasons to decide whether or not people want to read more of something. Since some people have already expressed a disinterest in this discussion, I’m explicitly inviting them to show that disinterest so I know not to waste their time. If it helps, imagine this conversation occurring on a My Little Pony forum with a karma system. Do you see why someone would want to downvote in that context a Popper v. Bayes discussion? Do you see how listening in that context to such preferences could be rational?
That’s ambiguous. Does he discuss Popper directly? Or, say, some of Popper’s students? Does the book have, say, more than 20 quotes of Popper, with commentary? More than 10? Any detailed, serious discuss of Popper? If it does, how do you know that having not read it? Is the discussion of Popper tainted by the common myths?
Some Less Wrongers recommend stuff that doesn’t have the specific stuff they claim it does have, e.g. the Mathematical Statistics book. IME it’s quite common that recommendations don’t have what they are supposed to even when people directly claim it’s there.
You seem to think I believe this stuff because I’m a beginner; that’s an insulting non-argument. I already know how to take outside views, I am not emotionally involved. I already know how to deal with such issues, and have done so.
None of your post here really has any substance. It’s also psychological and meta topics you’ve brought up. Maybe I shouldn’t have fed you any replies at all about them. But that’s why I’m not answering the rest.
Please don’t move goalposts and pretend they were there all along. You asked whether he mentioned Popper, to which I answered yes. I don’t know the answers to your above questions, and they really don’t have anything to do with the central points, the claims that I “pressured” you to read Earman based on his being a professional.
This confuses me.
Ok. This confuses me since earlier you had this exchange:
That discussion was about a week ago.
I’m also confused about where you are getting any reason to think that I think that you believe what you do because you are a “beginner”- it doesn’t help matters that I’m not sure what you mean by that term in this context.
But if you are very sure that you don’t have any emotional aspect coming into play then I will try to refrain from suggesting otherwise until we get more concrete data such as per Jim’s suggestion.
I have never been interested in people who mention Popper but people who address his ideas (well). I don’t know why you think I’m moving goalposts.
There’s a difference between “Outside View” and “outside view”. I certainly know what it means to look at things from another perspective which is what the non-caps one means (or at least that’s how I read it).
I am not “very sure” about anything; that’s not how it works; but I think pretty much everything I say here you can take as “very sure” in your worldview.
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-Wikipedia
Stop being a jerk. He didn’t even state whether it mentions Popper, let alone whether it does more than mention. The first thing wasn’t a goal post. You’re being super pedantic but you’re also wrong. It’s not charming.