It’s a real world category with real world consequences… seems silly to try and scrap it.
Take away the music (retroactively), and those artists would also be payed peanuts. Also, take away what little “poetry” you might find in Gaga, and you’ll get Kesha or Fergie. And still get paid mountains.
So long as the category isn’t defined by the lack of pay, and it really does point to a very distinct cluster of personspace (poet vs. pop star), it seems ridiculous to erase the border.
It’s a real world category with real world consequences… seems silly to try and scrap it.
Like with any category, it depends on the purpose you’re using it for. And I don’t know what purpose this category boundary would be for other than, “I don’t like my work being associated with Lady Gaga, so I’ll deem pop music ‘not poetry’.”
Song lyrics aren’t just by pop stars, and (as with any art form) there’s a huge range of quality.
There’s a poet who’s no longer speaking to me, and one of the many reasons is that I said song lyrics counted as poetry. I wish I could be sure of what she said on the subject, but I think is was that people are willing to repeatedly listen to the same song in a way that they aren’t willing to listen to spoken poetry or read poetry. I don’t know whether this is a reasonable distinction.
Nor whether a culture losing the centrality of spoken and read poetry is important, or whether rap (which has a distinctive presentation that’s neither singing nor speech) should be reasonably counted as poetry, song (rap music occupies the same cultural niche as melodicly based music), or something else.
For that matter, I don’t know whether ancient poetry (Homer, the sagas) was typically declaimed or chanted.
Reality may have joints in this area that it can be cut at, but I don’t know how to identify them.
We’re talking about having a superset term in common, not implied endorsement. Yes, you have the duty to accept that your work and Lady Gaga fall under the category “human culture”, and if you want to cleave that category just so you don’t have to share it with her, you need a much better reason than politics.
We’re talking about having a superset term in common, not implied endorsement
I don’t buy it. This issue isn’t about semantics, it’s about status. You evidently disapprove of the status being granted by the academic/critical elite to certain poets relative to Lady Gaga. But as far as I can tell you haven’t confronted their reasons for preferring “high poetry” to Gaga, instead simply taking it for granted that their reasons are inadequate.
The way to argue your case is to give an example of a poem that the establishment thinks is good and that you think is bad, explain why you think it’s bad, and explain why their argument that it’s good is wrong.
It’s a real world category with real world consequences… seems silly to try and scrap it.
Take away the music (retroactively), and those artists would also be payed peanuts. Also, take away what little “poetry” you might find in Gaga, and you’ll get Kesha or Fergie. And still get paid mountains.
So long as the category isn’t defined by the lack of pay, and it really does point to a very distinct cluster of personspace (poet vs. pop star), it seems ridiculous to erase the border.
Like with any category, it depends on the purpose you’re using it for. And I don’t know what purpose this category boundary would be for other than, “I don’t like my work being associated with Lady Gaga, so I’ll deem pop music ‘not poetry’.”
And that’s not a good enough reason.
Song lyrics aren’t just by pop stars, and (as with any art form) there’s a huge range of quality.
There’s a poet who’s no longer speaking to me, and one of the many reasons is that I said song lyrics counted as poetry. I wish I could be sure of what she said on the subject, but I think is was that people are willing to repeatedly listen to the same song in a way that they aren’t willing to listen to spoken poetry or read poetry. I don’t know whether this is a reasonable distinction.
Nor whether a culture losing the centrality of spoken and read poetry is important, or whether rap (which has a distinctive presentation that’s neither singing nor speech) should be reasonably counted as poetry, song (rap music occupies the same cultural niche as melodicly based music), or something else.
For that matter, I don’t know whether ancient poetry (Homer, the sagas) was typically declaimed or chanted.
Reality may have joints in this area that it can be cut at, but I don’t know how to identify them.
Why not? Is there some sort of duty to accept the association of one’s work with Lady Gaga against one’s wishes?
We’re talking about having a superset term in common, not implied endorsement. Yes, you have the duty to accept that your work and Lady Gaga fall under the category “human culture”, and if you want to cleave that category just so you don’t have to share it with her, you need a much better reason than politics.
I don’t buy it. This issue isn’t about semantics, it’s about status. You evidently disapprove of the status being granted by the academic/critical elite to certain poets relative to Lady Gaga. But as far as I can tell you haven’t confronted their reasons for preferring “high poetry” to Gaga, instead simply taking it for granted that their reasons are inadequate.
The way to argue your case is to give an example of a poem that the establishment thinks is good and that you think is bad, explain why you think it’s bad, and explain why their argument that it’s good is wrong.
Yes, I hold those beliefs. I wasn’t advancing them in this thread, and they aren’t necessary for me to make the point I’m making in this thread.