Dependence or addiction liability, while is low but not nil at therapeutic doses.
This statement really surprises me?
On average you get around 500-1000% more dopamine in the system as a consequence of using amphetamines and from a standard neuroscience perspective this is around 3x as much as caffiene for example.
Yes it is not heroin levels but dependency has to be a real concern here from a neuroscience perspective?
Long-term potentiation and return to baseline for the brain should mean that the learned patterns would be relatively hard to unlearn after 6 months of frequent usage?
How good is the studies on longer term behaviour change due to this stuff? I looked into the studies and it seemed like from a shorter term perspective the addiction effects of it were lower than I thought which I found quite interesting.
I think an important caveat here is that the addiction and dependence liability is quite dependent on how you administer it to yourself, the dosage, the specific routes that you’re ingesting it from etc. (which you mention but I think you’re understating some of the dangers of it)
I don’t think even neurotypical people using it as a PED are at much risk, as long as they keep the doses within reason. I’m of the opinion that current medical guidelines are far too conservative about stimulants, but in practice, they’re easily circumvented.
CNS drugs are powerful so yes I think we should still have some limits on this? I think one of the main things that are a bit difficult with them is that it can be hard to perceive the difference that they induce in yourself? Like if you’re on them, you don’t necessarily notice that you have less creativity and awareness, that is not how it feels and so if you’re overusing them or similar you just don’t get that feedback? (based on some modafinil experience & observations from friends)
I did try and make it clear that I’m only talking about therapeutic usage here, and even when off-label or for PED purposes, at therapeutic doses. I apologize for not stressing that even further, since it’s an important distinction to make.
I agree that it’s rather important to use it as prescribed, or if you’re sourcing it outside the medical system, making a strong effort to ensure you take it as would be prescribed (there’s nothing particularly complicated about the dosage, psychiatrists usually start you at the lowest dose, then titrate upwards depending on effect).
The Claude Research report seems fine to me, and I would think it aligns with my claims. The main issue with recreational usage is that a lot of people aren’t trying to be responsible users, or are taking intentionally talking large doses for recreational purposes. That’s more on them than it is on the drug! If you take it within the standard dosage range, the drug itself will not produce much in the way of craving for more.
>CNS drugs are powerful so yes I think we should still have some limits on this?
I am, if not outright libertarian, certainly leaning in that direction. So it depends on what the “limits” actually are. I think that doctors are currently overly risk-averse and conservative about prescribing them, but I don’t think they should be handed out like candy over the counter. I think there’s plenty of room in between that avoids the pitfalls of a maximalist position.
>I think one of the main things that are a bit difficult with them is that it can be hard to perceive the difference that they induce in yourself? Like if you’re on them, you don’t necessarily notice that you have less creativity and awareness, that is not how it feels and so if you’re overusing them or similar you just don’t get that feedback? (based on some modafinil experience & observations from friends)
The effects on creativity are rather minor. I can’t really tell a difference when I’m on them, but I do have ADHD so that might confound things. Some of the best and most creative things I’ve written were while I was on methylphenidate or dextroamphetamine! If you’re using it to make an often monotonous task like programming more palatable, or to improve your ability to study, then I wager the benefits massively outweigh the slight cognitive inflexibility. I don’t think you want stimulants if you’re trying to paint or write poetry, even if they won’t massively handicap you. The effects are subtle, you’re not becoming an automaton.
This statement really surprises me?
On average you get around 500-1000% more dopamine in the system as a consequence of using amphetamines and from a standard neuroscience perspective this is around 3x as much as caffiene for example.
Yes it is not heroin levels but dependency has to be a real concern here from a neuroscience perspective?
Long-term potentiation and return to baseline for the brain should mean that the learned patterns would be relatively hard to unlearn after 6 months of frequent usage?
How good is the studies on longer term behaviour change due to this stuff? I looked into the studies and it seemed like from a shorter term perspective the addiction effects of it were lower than I thought which I found quite interesting.
(dropping a claude research report link here: https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/b10e54df-6616-477f-ac19-fe52b4c9d926)
I think an important caveat here is that the addiction and dependence liability is quite dependent on how you administer it to yourself, the dosage, the specific routes that you’re ingesting it from etc. (which you mention but I think you’re understating some of the dangers of it)
CNS drugs are powerful so yes I think we should still have some limits on this? I think one of the main things that are a bit difficult with them is that it can be hard to perceive the difference that they induce in yourself? Like if you’re on them, you don’t necessarily notice that you have less creativity and awareness, that is not how it feels and so if you’re overusing them or similar you just don’t get that feedback? (based on some modafinil experience & observations from friends)
I did try and make it clear that I’m only talking about therapeutic usage here, and even when off-label or for PED purposes, at therapeutic doses. I apologize for not stressing that even further, since it’s an important distinction to make.
I agree that it’s rather important to use it as prescribed, or if you’re sourcing it outside the medical system, making a strong effort to ensure you take it as would be prescribed (there’s nothing particularly complicated about the dosage, psychiatrists usually start you at the lowest dose, then titrate upwards depending on effect).
The Claude Research report seems fine to me, and I would think it aligns with my claims. The main issue with recreational usage is that a lot of people aren’t trying to be responsible users, or are taking intentionally talking large doses for recreational purposes. That’s more on them than it is on the drug! If you take it within the standard dosage range, the drug itself will not produce much in the way of craving for more.
>CNS drugs are powerful so yes I think we should still have some limits on this?
I am, if not outright libertarian, certainly leaning in that direction. So it depends on what the “limits” actually are. I think that doctors are currently overly risk-averse and conservative about prescribing them, but I don’t think they should be handed out like candy over the counter. I think there’s plenty of room in between that avoids the pitfalls of a maximalist position.
>I think one of the main things that are a bit difficult with them is that it can be hard to perceive the difference that they induce in yourself? Like if you’re on them, you don’t necessarily notice that you have less creativity and awareness, that is not how it feels and so if you’re overusing them or similar you just don’t get that feedback? (based on some modafinil experience & observations from friends)
The effects on creativity are rather minor. I can’t really tell a difference when I’m on them, but I do have ADHD so that might confound things. Some of the best and most creative things I’ve written were while I was on methylphenidate or dextroamphetamine! If you’re using it to make an often monotonous task like programming more palatable, or to improve your ability to study, then I wager the benefits massively outweigh the slight cognitive inflexibility. I don’t think you want stimulants if you’re trying to paint or write poetry, even if they won’t massively handicap you. The effects are subtle, you’re not becoming an automaton.