I’ve recently spent a lot of time thinking about and researching the sociology and the history of ethics. Based on this I’m going to make a prediction that may be unsettling for some. At least it was unsettling for me when I made it less abstract, shifted to near mode thinking and imagined actually living in such a world. If my model proves accurate I probably eventually will.
“Between consenting adults.” as the core of modern sexual morality and the limit of law is going to prove to be a poor Schelling fence.
Unsettling in what sense? Like, it will eventually erode monogamy, and so cause more sexual inequality? It will break down gender-based sexuality, effectively turning everyone bi? Legalized rape? Dogs and cats living together?
(Channeling Multiheaded: Don’t be so vague, especially when you’re making predictions!)
Like, it will eventually erode monogamy, and so cause more sexual inequality?
Meh this is already a fait accompli from what I see..
Don’t be so vague, especially when you’re making predictions!
This is excellent advice. I will do so.
Children (and I do mean children, I’m not talking about young teens) will be considered capable of giving consent to have sex with adults. Their parents will be discouraged from influencing their choice (even if it is “choice”) of sexual partner too much. Rape will become a much less serious crime. A significantly smaller fraction of rapes will be persecuted. Western countries will have higher rates of rape than they currently do.
I think the first urge of a LessWronger reading the above is to pattern match such claims to weirdtopia. A place where sex with children and more rape is actually a good thing according to our current utility function just in really counter-intuitive way.
No. I want people to try and discard just universe instincts and try to just for the sake of visualisation consider the above outside of weirdtopia.
I agree completely that over time, our current beliefs about who is and isn’t capable of giving informed consent to enter into a sexual relationship will be replaced by different beliefs.
I don’t quite see why trending towards considering more and more people capable of consent is more likely than trending towards fewer and fewer people capable of it, or something else, but it’s certainly possible. (If you can share your thinking along these lines, I’d be interested.)
In terms of my reactions, I am of course repulsed by the idea of people I don’t consider capable of informed consent being manipulated or forced into providing the semblance of it, except in those cases where I happen to endorse the thing they’re being manipulated or forced into doing, and also repulsed by the idea of people I consider capable of giving informed consent being denied the freedom to do so, except in those cases where I happen to endorse them being denied that freedom.
This includes (but is very much not limited to) being repulsed by the example of eight-year-olds being considered capable of giving consent to have sex with adults, and of anyone not being considered capable of refusing such consent.
I am of course aware that my own notions of who is and isn’t capable of consenting to what degree to what acts are essentially arbitrary, and I don’t lend much credence to the idea that I am by a moral miracle able to make the right distinction. I make the distinctions I make; as my social context changes I will make different distinctions.
Agreed about the decline of monogamy as largely inevitable now, though I’m undecided how bad it is, especially with “more fun than sex” superstimuli becoming more widespread.
I think I see a possible slippery slope based on between consenting adults, although EDIT: based on the above it was not be the one Konkvistador was thinking of.
Presumably clearly illegal:
Let’s say I mind control thousands of people into doing me as many favors as I want using a magical mind control ring that has a 99.9% success rate. (Obviously, these are not consenting adults!)
Currently legal:
Let’s say I advertise to thousands of people into buying a product of mine using a variety of technological devices and methods which altogether takes several days to fully work, but it only has a 50% success rate. (Obviously, these are consenting adults!)
Incremental steps:
Let’s say I mind control thousands of people into buying a product of mine using a variety of technological devices and methods which altogether takes several days to fully work, but it only has a 50% success rate.
Let’s say I mind control thousands of people into doing me a single favor using a variety of technological devices and methods which altogether takes several days to fully work, but it only has a 50% success rate.
Let’s say I mind control thousands of people into doing me a single favor using a variety of technological devices and methods which altogether takes several days to fully work but it has a 99.9% success rate.
Let’s say I mind control thousands of people into doing me a single favor using a technological mind control helmet which takes several days to fully work, but it has a 99.9% success rate.
Let’s say I mind control thousands of people into doing me as many favors as I want using a technological mind control helmet which takes several days to fully work, but it has a 99.9% success rate.
Let’s say I mind control thousands of people into doing me as many favors as I want using a technological mind control helmet which takes several days to fully work but it has a 99.9% success rate.
Let’s say I mind control thousands of people into doing me as many favors as I want using a technological mind control helmet that has a 99.9% success rate.
And back to presumably clearly illegal:
Let’s say I mind control thousands of people into doing me as many favors as I want using a magical mind control ring that has a 99.9% success rate.
Based on the question, at which specific step do I go to far? I don’t immediately have a good answer, so at least at first glance it seems like a slippery slope.
I’ve recently spent a lot of time thinking about and researching the sociology and the history of ethics. Based on this I’m going to make a prediction that may be unsettling for some. At least it was unsettling for me when I made it less abstract, shifted to near mode thinking and imagined actually living in such a world. If my model proves accurate I probably eventually will.
“Between consenting adults.” as the core of modern sexual morality and the limit of law is going to prove to be a poor Schelling fence.
Unsettling in what sense? Like, it will eventually erode monogamy, and so cause more sexual inequality? It will break down gender-based sexuality, effectively turning everyone bi? Legalized rape? Dogs and cats living together?
(Channeling Multiheaded: Don’t be so vague, especially when you’re making predictions!)
Meh this is already a fait accompli from what I see..
This is excellent advice. I will do so.
Children (and I do mean children, I’m not talking about young teens) will be considered capable of giving consent to have sex with adults. Their parents will be discouraged from influencing their choice (even if it is “choice”) of sexual partner too much. Rape will become a much less serious crime. A significantly smaller fraction of rapes will be persecuted. Western countries will have higher rates of rape than they currently do.
I think the first urge of a LessWronger reading the above is to pattern match such claims to weirdtopia. A place where sex with children and more rape is actually a good thing according to our current utility function just in really counter-intuitive way.
No. I want people to try and discard just universe instincts and try to just for the sake of visualisation consider the above outside of weirdtopia.
I agree completely that over time, our current beliefs about who is and isn’t capable of giving informed consent to enter into a sexual relationship will be replaced by different beliefs.
I don’t quite see why trending towards considering more and more people capable of consent is more likely than trending towards fewer and fewer people capable of it, or something else, but it’s certainly possible. (If you can share your thinking along these lines, I’d be interested.)
In terms of my reactions, I am of course repulsed by the idea of people I don’t consider capable of informed consent being manipulated or forced into providing the semblance of it, except in those cases where I happen to endorse the thing they’re being manipulated or forced into doing, and also repulsed by the idea of people I consider capable of giving informed consent being denied the freedom to do so, except in those cases where I happen to endorse them being denied that freedom.
This includes (but is very much not limited to) being repulsed by the example of eight-year-olds being considered capable of giving consent to have sex with adults, and of anyone not being considered capable of refusing such consent.
I am of course aware that my own notions of who is and isn’t capable of consenting to what degree to what acts are essentially arbitrary, and I don’t lend much credence to the idea that I am by a moral miracle able to make the right distinction. I make the distinctions I make; as my social context changes I will make different distinctions.
I’m OK with that.
Thanks, that clarifies it.
Agreed about the decline of monogamy as largely inevitable now, though I’m undecided how bad it is, especially with “more fun than sex” superstimuli becoming more widespread.
(And for reference, here’s some previous discussion about children and sexuality.)
I think I see a possible slippery slope based on between consenting adults, although EDIT: based on the above it was not be the one Konkvistador was thinking of.
Presumably clearly illegal: Let’s say I mind control thousands of people into doing me as many favors as I want using a magical mind control ring that has a 99.9% success rate. (Obviously, these are not consenting adults!)
Currently legal: Let’s say I advertise to thousands of people into buying a product of mine using a variety of technological devices and methods which altogether takes several days to fully work, but it only has a 50% success rate. (Obviously, these are consenting adults!)
Incremental steps: Let’s say I mind control thousands of people into buying a product of mine using a variety of technological devices and methods which altogether takes several days to fully work, but it only has a 50% success rate.
Let’s say I mind control thousands of people into doing me a single favor using a variety of technological devices and methods which altogether takes several days to fully work, but it only has a 50% success rate.
Let’s say I mind control thousands of people into doing me a single favor using a variety of technological devices and methods which altogether takes several days to fully work but it has a 99.9% success rate.
Let’s say I mind control thousands of people into doing me a single favor using a technological mind control helmet which takes several days to fully work, but it has a 99.9% success rate.
Let’s say I mind control thousands of people into doing me as many favors as I want using a technological mind control helmet which takes several days to fully work, but it has a 99.9% success rate.
Let’s say I mind control thousands of people into doing me as many favors as I want using a technological mind control helmet which takes several days to fully work but it has a 99.9% success rate.
Let’s say I mind control thousands of people into doing me as many favors as I want using a technological mind control helmet that has a 99.9% success rate.
And back to presumably clearly illegal: Let’s say I mind control thousands of people into doing me as many favors as I want using a magical mind control ring that has a 99.9% success rate.
Based on the question, at which specific step do I go to far? I don’t immediately have a good answer, so at least at first glance it seems like a slippery slope.