hmmm, I’m wondering if you’re pointing at something different from the thing in this space which I intuitively expect is good using words that sound more extreme than I’d use, or whether you’re pointing at a different thing. I’ll take a shot at describing the thing I’d be happy with of this type and you can let me know whether this feels like the thing you’re trying to point to:
An ontology restricts the shape of thought by being of a set shape. All of them are insufficient, the Tao that can be specified is not the true Tao, but each can contain patterns that are useful if you let them dissolve and continually release the meta-structures rather than cling to them as a whole. By continually releasing as much of your structure back to flow you grow much faster and in more directions, because in returning from that dissolving you reform with much more of your collected patterns integrated and get out of some of your local minima.
I’m pointing to something more extreme than this, but I’d say this is a good direction.
I will attempt, badly, to capture it in words inspired by your description above.
I say ‘badly’ because I’m not fully able to see the Truth and describe it, but there is a Truth, and it can be described. This process you allude to RE: dissolving and releasing is part of how Truth is revealed, and that’s what I’m training in.
So my re-write of this:
An ontology restricts the shape of [the perceived world] by being of a set shape. All of them are insufficient, the Tao [is beyond conceptualization], but each can contain patterns that are useful [if and only if] you [use them to] dissolve and continually release [all patterns] rather than cling to them.
You imply, maybe, that the point is to come back and reform. To get all the patterns ‘integrated’ and come back into structure.
But the thing around ‘flow’ and ‘faster’ and such—all of this is better achieved with no structure or meta-structure. Because structure opposes flow, period. The point isn’t to create some ultimate ontology or structure, no matter how fluid, fast, or integrated you think it is; this is returning to delusion, or making delusion the purpose.
This takes sufficient letting go to see, but it’s also logically sound even if you can’t buy it experientially.
Is there a place for structure? Yes, we use structure as middle way stepping stones to release structure. We have to use delusion (concepts, etc.) to escape delusion because delusion is what we have to work with. The fact that it’s possible to use delusion to escape delusion is the amazing thing.
Interesting, yes. I think I see, and I think I disagree with this extreme formulation, despite knowing that this is remarkably often a good direction to go in. If “[if and only if]” was replaced with “especially”, I would agree, as I think the continual/regular release process is an amplifier on progress not a full requisite.
As for re-forming, yes, I do expect there is a true pattern we are within, which can be in its full specification known, though all the consequences of that specification would only fit into a universe. I think having fluidity on as many layers of ontology as you can is generally correct (and that most people have way too little of this), but I expect the process of release and dissolve will increasingly converge, if you’re doing well at it.
In the spirit of gently poking at your process: My uncertain, please take it lightly, guess is that you’ve annealed strongly towards the release/dissolve process itself, to the extent that it itself is an ontology which has some level of fixedness in you.
The benefit of fixing on the release/dissolve as a way of being is that it will release/dissolve itself, and that’s what makes it safer than fixing on anything that doesn’t have an ‘expiration date’ as it were.
I think the confusion on this is that
We have this sense that some process is safe or good to fix upon. Because ‘process’ is more change-y than something static.
But even process is not safe to fix upon. You are not a process. We’re not in a process. To say ‘process’ is trying to ‘thing-ify’ or ‘reify’ something that does not have a property called ‘existence’ nor ‘non-existence’. We must escape from the flattening dichotomy of existence and non-existence, which is a nonsense.
A “universe” cannot be fully specified, and I believe our physics has made that clear. But also our idea of ‘universe’ is ridiculously small-minded still. Science has narrowed our vision of what is, and fixated upon it, and now we’re actually more ignorant / deluded than before. Although I also appreciate the beauty of science and math.
Yup, DMing for context!
hmmm, I’m wondering if you’re pointing at something different from the thing in this space which I intuitively expect is good using words that sound more extreme than I’d use, or whether you’re pointing at a different thing. I’ll take a shot at describing the thing I’d be happy with of this type and you can let me know whether this feels like the thing you’re trying to point to:
I’m pointing to something more extreme than this, but I’d say this is a good direction.
I will attempt, badly, to capture it in words inspired by your description above.
I say ‘badly’ because I’m not fully able to see the Truth and describe it, but there is a Truth, and it can be described. This process you allude to RE: dissolving and releasing is part of how Truth is revealed, and that’s what I’m training in.
So my re-write of this:
You imply, maybe, that the point is to come back and reform. To get all the patterns ‘integrated’ and come back into structure.
But the thing around ‘flow’ and ‘faster’ and such—all of this is better achieved with no structure or meta-structure. Because structure opposes flow, period. The point isn’t to create some ultimate ontology or structure, no matter how fluid, fast, or integrated you think it is; this is returning to delusion, or making delusion the purpose.
This takes sufficient letting go to see, but it’s also logically sound even if you can’t buy it experientially.
Is there a place for structure? Yes, we use structure as middle way stepping stones to release structure. We have to use delusion (concepts, etc.) to escape delusion because delusion is what we have to work with. The fact that it’s possible to use delusion to escape delusion is the amazing thing.
Interesting, yes. I think I see, and I think I disagree with this extreme formulation, despite knowing that this is remarkably often a good direction to go in. If “[if and only if]” was replaced with “especially”, I would agree, as I think the continual/regular release process is an amplifier on progress not a full requisite.
As for re-forming, yes, I do expect there is a true pattern we are within, which can be in its full specification known, though all the consequences of that specification would only fit into a universe. I think having fluidity on as many layers of ontology as you can is generally correct (and that most people have way too little of this), but I expect the process of release and dissolve will increasingly converge, if you’re doing well at it.
In the spirit of gently poking at your process: My uncertain, please take it lightly, guess is that you’ve annealed strongly towards the release/dissolve process itself, to the extent that it itself is an ontology which has some level of fixedness in you.
The benefit of fixing on the release/dissolve as a way of being is that it will release/dissolve itself, and that’s what makes it safer than fixing on anything that doesn’t have an ‘expiration date’ as it were.
I think the confusion on this is that
We have this sense that some process is safe or good to fix upon. Because ‘process’ is more change-y than something static.
But even process is not safe to fix upon. You are not a process. We’re not in a process. To say ‘process’ is trying to ‘thing-ify’ or ‘reify’ something that does not have a property called ‘existence’ nor ‘non-existence’. We must escape from the flattening dichotomy of existence and non-existence, which is a nonsense.
A “universe” cannot be fully specified, and I believe our physics has made that clear. But also our idea of ‘universe’ is ridiculously small-minded still. Science has narrowed our vision of what is, and fixated upon it, and now we’re actually more ignorant / deluded than before. Although I also appreciate the beauty of science and math.