Another version of the starvation objection to this hypothetical is this:
Such a system would rather quickly result in large groups of people inventing ownership and protecting it by force, by threat of violence. Maybe not the first time the half-ripe tomato you don’t own but which you planted is eaten by someone else before you eat it you will not sign on to this alternative. But if you manage to stay alive long enough, you will soon be trading your labor for food and be incredibly grateful that the same system which is LETTING you trade your labor for food is also setting up powerful violent incentives for others to leave you in peace with “your” food.
This is a version of my own “objection” to anarchism. Anarchy is unstable to the formation of what is, effectively, government, and the essence of government is a system that tells you what is NOT yours, what is yours, and provides powerful and violent responses to those who “disagree” with their characterization. If you are lucky, you get the American constitution, if you are half-lucky you get the Mafia in 19th and 20th century Sicily, and if your luck is lousy you get roving militias in Toyota pick-up trucks with machine guns mounted in the back.
I await your counterfactual proposal on how to prevent the formation of a government or a militia.
if your luck is lousy you get roving militias in Toyota pick-up trucks with machine guns mounted in the back.
Probably not. Toyota pick-ups require gasoline. Extracting oil and refining it into gasoline is a sufficiently complex process that it’s impossible under the kinds of property regimes the “roving bandits” can maintain.
Note that the Somali warlords don’t extract or refine gas themselves, they barter for it from better organized nations. Heck, according to the article the vehicles were paid for by misguided foreign NGOs.
My vote for most valuable insight applying as much to natural fitness as to economic behavior it is this:
The most important part of the environment is the humans and what they are doing. If I and my merry band of 100 or 1000 or even 1000000 or even 1000000000 tribe members are contemplating how we should supply ourselves with food, shelter, weapons, entertainment, & c., we should first, foremost, and with great care look to use what is already developed, invented, and produced by the rest of the world. You were concerned about warlords having trouble extracting or refining oil, but you stumbled upon the reasonable assumption that obviously the Toyotas are going to come from Japan and don’t need to be produced by the warlords.
Even in the US, about the single most effective source of new cool stuff yet to grace the surface of the earth, we drive Toyotas. And BMW, Mercedes, Fiat, Volvo, Hyundai etc. We get wine, cheese, movies, etc. from everywhere else. In some self-fulfilling sense, we import about as much as we export.
Could we go it alone? Sure. We’d probably be about 90% poorer. You can quibble over whether we’d only be 20% poorer or 95% poorer, but if you at all immerse yourself in a study of where stuff comes from, the expense of inventing vs copying, the benefits of mass production and massive specialization, you will absolutely unavoidably get the sign of the effect right.
My point is that in the “whole world adopts anarchy” scenario the warlords wouldn’t be able to use trucks. Heck, without the NGOs’ money they probably wouldn’t be able to use trucks.
Indeed, you don’t have to do everything yourself. But trade is just one way of getting something from others. Another way is simply taking it, with force. In biology (“natural fitness”), as Greg Cochrane puts it, the usual way is “Let George do it, and then eat George.”
But trade is just one way of getting something from others.
Yes nice summary of the original point of the entire thread. Money (which is trade, n’est-ce pas?) is just one way of getting something.
And the argument has been can we get more of something by abandoning money. And you and I have pretty much been saying “almost certainly not, what proposal do you have that hasn’t already been discredited?”
Mais non, money is not “just” trade or “just” one way of getting something. Off the top of my head, money has multiple roles which include being:
medium of exchange (that’s trade)
store of value
Which is time shifted trade. I.e. I trade a perishable good now (like my labor or a bottle of milk) for some money, I store it for a while, and then I buy something with it. I can’t imagine that this is anything more than a description of what we mean when we say “store of value”
way of measuring and comparing the value of different goods
And how does money do that? By being used to trade for different goods, money provides a common denominator for an externalizable ranking of values. (my internal ranking of values, a 25 cent caramel is worth much more than a few $10s of bucks for some sea urchin served in some restaurants as a delicacy.
But if two of these three functions seem like something other than trade to you, enjoy.
Another version of the starvation objection to this hypothetical is this:
Such a system would rather quickly result in large groups of people inventing ownership and protecting it by force, by threat of violence. Maybe not the first time the half-ripe tomato you don’t own but which you planted is eaten by someone else before you eat it you will not sign on to this alternative. But if you manage to stay alive long enough, you will soon be trading your labor for food and be incredibly grateful that the same system which is LETTING you trade your labor for food is also setting up powerful violent incentives for others to leave you in peace with “your” food.
This is a version of my own “objection” to anarchism. Anarchy is unstable to the formation of what is, effectively, government, and the essence of government is a system that tells you what is NOT yours, what is yours, and provides powerful and violent responses to those who “disagree” with their characterization. If you are lucky, you get the American constitution, if you are half-lucky you get the Mafia in 19th and 20th century Sicily, and if your luck is lousy you get roving militias in Toyota pick-up trucks with machine guns mounted in the back.
I await your counterfactual proposal on how to prevent the formation of a government or a militia.
Probably not. Toyota pick-ups require gasoline. Extracting oil and refining it into gasoline is a sufficiently complex process that it’s impossible under the kinds of property regimes the “roving bandits” can maintain.
Interesting hypothesis. But it doesn’t align with facts, bummer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_(vehicle)
Note that the Somali warlords don’t extract or refine gas themselves, they barter for it from better organized nations. Heck, according to the article the vehicles were paid for by misguided foreign NGOs.
My vote for most valuable insight applying as much to natural fitness as to economic behavior it is this:
The most important part of the environment is the humans and what they are doing. If I and my merry band of 100 or 1000 or even 1000000 or even 1000000000 tribe members are contemplating how we should supply ourselves with food, shelter, weapons, entertainment, & c., we should first, foremost, and with great care look to use what is already developed, invented, and produced by the rest of the world. You were concerned about warlords having trouble extracting or refining oil, but you stumbled upon the reasonable assumption that obviously the Toyotas are going to come from Japan and don’t need to be produced by the warlords.
Even in the US, about the single most effective source of new cool stuff yet to grace the surface of the earth, we drive Toyotas. And BMW, Mercedes, Fiat, Volvo, Hyundai etc. We get wine, cheese, movies, etc. from everywhere else. In some self-fulfilling sense, we import about as much as we export.
Could we go it alone? Sure. We’d probably be about 90% poorer. You can quibble over whether we’d only be 20% poorer or 95% poorer, but if you at all immerse yourself in a study of where stuff comes from, the expense of inventing vs copying, the benefits of mass production and massive specialization, you will absolutely unavoidably get the sign of the effect right.
My point is that in the “whole world adopts anarchy” scenario the warlords wouldn’t be able to use trucks. Heck, without the NGOs’ money they probably wouldn’t be able to use trucks.
Indeed, you don’t have to do everything yourself. But trade is just one way of getting something from others. Another way is simply taking it, with force. In biology (“natural fitness”), as Greg Cochrane puts it, the usual way is “Let George do it, and then eat George.”
Yes nice summary of the original point of the entire thread. Money (which is trade, n’est-ce pas?) is just one way of getting something.
And the argument has been can we get more of something by abandoning money. And you and I have pretty much been saying “almost certainly not, what proposal do you have that hasn’t already been discredited?”
Mais non, money is not “just” trade or “just” one way of getting something. Off the top of my head, money has multiple roles which include being:
medium of exchange (that’s trade)
store of value
way of measuring and comparing the value of different goods
In particular, the last role is vital for the informational function of money.
Mais non, money is not “just” trade or “just” one way of getting something. Off the top of my head, money has multiple roles which include being:
medium of exchange (that’s trade)
store of value
Which is time shifted trade. I.e. I trade a perishable good now (like my labor or a bottle of milk) for some money, I store it for a while, and then I buy something with it. I can’t imagine that this is anything more than a description of what we mean when we say “store of value”
way of measuring and comparing the value of different goods
And how does money do that? By being used to trade for different goods, money provides a common denominator for an externalizable ranking of values. (my internal ranking of values, a 25 cent caramel is worth much more than a few $10s of bucks for some sea urchin served in some restaurants as a delicacy.
But if two of these three functions seem like something other than trade to you, enjoy.