About donating vs. working: I don’t agree that the two are fundamentally different. Basically what I’m saying is time is money and money is time. I think there is a conversion rate between the two and that rate is certainly not static. But you have to consider the counterfactual, what you could be doing if you didn’t spend your time or money on a cause. For example if you are a very good cost-effectiveness researcher your time may be worth 2 or 3 times as much as the money you could make earning to give. But that money could pay for at least one additional researcher. Similarly, if you spend your time writing web posts that time could be spent working a student job or better, investing in your career which will yield money in the long run. Somehow you can always convert the two.
Although we can’t quantify the conversion rate I think it exists. And generally I would expect it to be around 1, maybe between 0,33 and 3 in some cases. That is sometimes significant, but with the different causes we’re talking about we don’t expect the impact to be even in the same order of magnitude. So for example it wouldn’t make sense to say working on MIRI is a good idea, but donating to them is not a good idea.
So if I say I would not donate to an organisation it makes sense to ask if I would not work for that organisation either. Money and time are somehow convertible into each other. So I wouldn’t agree that value of information is always better purchased by time than by money. And if it is, the difference may not be all that great.
And a question: Maybe this has been answered somewhere, but I think it would be useful if you straightforwardly said which causes you consider speculative. Makes this quite vague discussion a little less vague hopefully. So say 80k, EAA, GWWC, MIRI, FHI, CFAR, Effective Fundraising, Animal Ethics, all x-risk related, all research related?? This would really help me. I think the issue you raised with your post is very important to discuss and get right ;)
So if I say I would not donate to an organisation it makes sense to ask if I would not work for that organisation either.
I’m not sure this is the case. If you’re working for the organiazation, you’re in a significant different place with regard to the amount of information you can get on the organization’s impact and what you can do to increase that information. I think it’s possible to be the case that if you’re working in a speculative organization, you can get further information through working but not through donating.
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Maybe this has been answered somewhere, but I think it would be useful if you straightforwardly said which causes you consider speculative. Makes this quite vague discussion a little less vague hopefully
I see, that makes sense. I understood value of information as creating valuable information for the whole community. You seem to be talking about valuable information for oneself. And maybe as an added bonus increasing the information about your organization more than a replacement worker would otherwise.
But yes, it makes sense to me that if you work for a speculative cause you are in a better position to assess if you should donate to them.
The point I was trying to make is less about value of information for yourself but information for others. Your donation ould fund a new employee for example who 1. gathers a lot of information like you would if you were in there position and 2. brings valuable information to the community in general. The questions is of course whether that person would be as productive as you.
I understood value of information as creating valuable information for the whole community. You seem to be talking about valuable information for oneself.
Well, any information I gather individually could be shared.
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Your donation could fund a new employee for example who 1. gathers a lot of information like you would if you were in there position and 2. brings valuable information to the community in general.
Right. That would be one way to do it, if you could trust the person you hire to be interested in gathering information. Right now, my perception is that people who are interested in gathering information and reporting it are kind of rare.
That’s an interesting point. I strongly agree that less proven charities should do more internal research and especially reporting about their effectiveness. I think this could fuel an important discussion. Even if the results aren’t that amazing I think certain people would consider donating to them more simply because they are more aware of the opportunity and/or less uncertain about it.
I’m not quite sure yet what exactly you refer to by information though. It sounds like this refers to reporting about the effectiveness of the charities. Or are you talking about information like cost-effectiveness research and research papers/blog posts as well?
About donating vs. working: I don’t agree that the two are fundamentally different. Basically what I’m saying is time is money and money is time. I think there is a conversion rate between the two and that rate is certainly not static. But you have to consider the counterfactual, what you could be doing if you didn’t spend your time or money on a cause. For example if you are a very good cost-effectiveness researcher your time may be worth 2 or 3 times as much as the money you could make earning to give. But that money could pay for at least one additional researcher. Similarly, if you spend your time writing web posts that time could be spent working a student job or better, investing in your career which will yield money in the long run. Somehow you can always convert the two.
Although we can’t quantify the conversion rate I think it exists. And generally I would expect it to be around 1, maybe between 0,33 and 3 in some cases. That is sometimes significant, but with the different causes we’re talking about we don’t expect the impact to be even in the same order of magnitude. So for example it wouldn’t make sense to say working on MIRI is a good idea, but donating to them is not a good idea.
So if I say I would not donate to an organisation it makes sense to ask if I would not work for that organisation either. Money and time are somehow convertible into each other. So I wouldn’t agree that value of information is always better purchased by time than by money. And if it is, the difference may not be all that great.
And a question: Maybe this has been answered somewhere, but I think it would be useful if you straightforwardly said which causes you consider speculative. Makes this quite vague discussion a little less vague hopefully. So say 80k, EAA, GWWC, MIRI, FHI, CFAR, Effective Fundraising, Animal Ethics, all x-risk related, all research related?? This would really help me. I think the issue you raised with your post is very important to discuss and get right ;)
I’m not sure this is the case. If you’re working for the organiazation, you’re in a significant different place with regard to the amount of information you can get on the organization’s impact and what you can do to increase that information. I think it’s possible to be the case that if you’re working in a speculative organization, you can get further information through working but not through donating.
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I answer this now in “What Would it Take to ‘Prove’ A Speculative Cause?”.
I see, that makes sense. I understood value of information as creating valuable information for the whole community. You seem to be talking about valuable information for oneself. And maybe as an added bonus increasing the information about your organization more than a replacement worker would otherwise.
But yes, it makes sense to me that if you work for a speculative cause you are in a better position to assess if you should donate to them.
The point I was trying to make is less about value of information for yourself but information for others. Your donation ould fund a new employee for example who 1. gathers a lot of information like you would if you were in there position and 2. brings valuable information to the community in general. The questions is of course whether that person would be as productive as you.
Well, any information I gather individually could be shared.
~
Right. That would be one way to do it, if you could trust the person you hire to be interested in gathering information. Right now, my perception is that people who are interested in gathering information and reporting it are kind of rare.
That’s an interesting point. I strongly agree that less proven charities should do more internal research and especially reporting about their effectiveness. I think this could fuel an important discussion. Even if the results aren’t that amazing I think certain people would consider donating to them more simply because they are more aware of the opportunity and/or less uncertain about it.
I’m not quite sure yet what exactly you refer to by information though. It sounds like this refers to reporting about the effectiveness of the charities. Or are you talking about information like cost-effectiveness research and research papers/blog posts as well?
I’m thinking here information about impact, or evidence that would lower our uncertainty about the effect of a certain intervention.