There’s a proverb I failed to Google, which runs something like, “Once someone is known to be a liar, you might as well listen to the whistling of the wind.” You wouldn’t want others to expect you to lie, if you have something important to say to them; and this issue cannot be wholly decoupled from the issue of whether you actually tell the truth. If you’ll lie when the fate of the world is at stake, and others can guess that fact about you, then, at the moment when the fate of the world is at stake, that’s the moment when your words become the whistling of the wind.
I don’t know if you read the entire body of my comment bringing up Kant, but it rests on asking if there was a similarity in Eliezer’s argument and Kants with a question mark at the end.
Both Eliezer and Kant seem to think that this abstract thing called “trust” suffers when individuals choose to lie for their own purposes. Both of them suggest that individuals who believe this would benefit from adopting a maxim that they should not lie.
Eliezer states in the comments that you can lie to people who aren’t part of your community of rational or potentially rational individuals.
Kant says that you can’t lie to people, even if they aren’t part of your club.
You don’t need the CI to reach either of these conclusions; the comment points out that you could do this on Utilitarian grounds. Utilitarian reasoning might even support Kants “don’t like to anyone ever” over Eliezer’s conceptions.
As for arguing Kant leading to a dead end, there is plenty of contemporary philosophy that still uses a lot of Kant and even NPOV Wikipedia has a section detailing Kant in contemporary philosophy.
Also, I think most people on here agree that Kant was wrong. In more ways than one. Thus debating Kant is pretty much a dead end.
I am always of the mind that saying that someone’s assumptions are wrong doesn’t lead to their argument having no value ever for any future discussion. In this particular case we got to use a Kantian thought experiment to talk about what looks like a variation on Kantian logic. I’m sorry I used the K word.
The idea of everyone on LW believing that Kant was almost totally wrong and that we should completely discard him is a little unsettling to me. There is a much larger community out there that accepts elements of Kant’s arguments and methods and still applies them; I would again push a Robin Hanson line by suggesting that most rationalists are elsewhere and we should work harder to find them.
With regard to whether Kant was relevant, I quote the article we are commenting on:
The problem with bringing up Kant here is that he simply doesn’t belong. “Don’t [lie] to anyone unless you’d also slash their tires, because they’re Nazis or whatever,” is very different from Kant saying (paraphrasing), “Never lie, ever, or else you’re a bad person.” An argument against the former by conflating it with the latter doesn’t accomplish anything. Further, there’s no mention of all the stuff Kant has to assume in order to argue for the Categorical Imperative and, finally, the value of radical honesty.
In other words, I agree with Andrew’s criticism of you (among others) for bring up Kant in the first place. He simply didn’t belong.
...there is plenty of contemporary philosophy that still uses a lot of Kant and even NPOV Wikipedia has a section detailing Kant in contemporary philosophy.
First, I should be clear, I was only talking about Kant’s ethics. My fault for not making that more clear to begin with. However, I don’t think this counts much in Kant’s favor because there is plenty of contemporary philosophy still using ideas from Plato or Aquinas, even when they are pretty clearly wrong (metaphysical realism, anyone? How about agent causation?).
There may be something worthwhile in Kant, but I’m rather skeptical. Given what Kant I’ve already read, I think my efforts are better spent elsewhere. If you think there is something worthwhile in Kant, then by all means, tell us about it. It may make a good post here.
It’s not Kant everyone’s chucking out—it’s deontological ethics, in favour of consequentialism. If I could only get the world to pick up one rationalist lesson, I would like them to shut up and multiply.
-from Eliezer’s quoted article Here
I don’t know if you read the entire body of my comment bringing up Kant, but it rests on asking if there was a similarity in Eliezer’s argument and Kants with a question mark at the end.
Both Eliezer and Kant seem to think that this abstract thing called “trust” suffers when individuals choose to lie for their own purposes. Both of them suggest that individuals who believe this would benefit from adopting a maxim that they should not lie.
Eliezer states in the comments that you can lie to people who aren’t part of your community of rational or potentially rational individuals.
Kant says that you can’t lie to people, even if they aren’t part of your club.
You don’t need the CI to reach either of these conclusions; the comment points out that you could do this on Utilitarian grounds. Utilitarian reasoning might even support Kants “don’t like to anyone ever” over Eliezer’s conceptions.
As for arguing Kant leading to a dead end, there is plenty of contemporary philosophy that still uses a lot of Kant and even NPOV Wikipedia has a section detailing Kant in contemporary philosophy.
I am always of the mind that saying that someone’s assumptions are wrong doesn’t lead to their argument having no value ever for any future discussion. In this particular case we got to use a Kantian thought experiment to talk about what looks like a variation on Kantian logic. I’m sorry I used the K word.
The idea of everyone on LW believing that Kant was almost totally wrong and that we should completely discard him is a little unsettling to me. There is a much larger community out there that accepts elements of Kant’s arguments and methods and still applies them; I would again push a Robin Hanson line by suggesting that most rationalists are elsewhere and we should work harder to find them.
With regard to whether Kant was relevant, I quote the article we are commenting on:
In other words, I agree with Andrew’s criticism of you (among others) for bring up Kant in the first place. He simply didn’t belong.
First, I should be clear, I was only talking about Kant’s ethics. My fault for not making that more clear to begin with. However, I don’t think this counts much in Kant’s favor because there is plenty of contemporary philosophy still using ideas from Plato or Aquinas, even when they are pretty clearly wrong (metaphysical realism, anyone? How about agent causation?).
There may be something worthwhile in Kant, but I’m rather skeptical. Given what Kant I’ve already read, I think my efforts are better spent elsewhere. If you think there is something worthwhile in Kant, then by all means, tell us about it. It may make a good post here.
It’s not Kant everyone’s chucking out—it’s deontological ethics, in favour of consequentialism. If I could only get the world to pick up one rationalist lesson, I would like them to shut up and multiply.