As a teaching tool it seems almost useless; the language is antiquated, way past age-appropriate for elementary school, and while the meaning of the Pledge might be the subject of a third-grade civics lesson I don’t recall any substantial effort to break down its text in such a way as to integrate it into working knowledge.
Which now strikes me as a fairly clever bit of social engineering. At first I don’t think you’d need meaningful content; if you and your classmates are facing the flag, right hand over heart, and quoting from the text in unison, you’d still get group cohesion effects if the text itself was a list of Vedic demons or multilingual translations of the word “pickle”. But later, as children learn about concepts like duty by other means, they’re supplied with associations left over from their childhood practice. At least in theory; in practice this might be ruined by other associations, as elementary school’s usually not a terribly pleasant place for its inmates.
The “under God” bit can lead to some unpleasant cognitive dissonance as a secular child, too.
And I agree, ‘under God’ should be removed. But it’s not really a big deal. A substantial part of the value of secularism is in the fact that you have to go against the grain a bit.
Well, not just patriotism (which is good if your country is good) but also the whole ‘liberty and justice for all’ thing. I think it’s kind of nice. I want liberty and justice for all.
Patriotism can also sometimes be good independent of whether my country is good, insofar as it can facilitate cooperation among patriots, who even in a bad country might have good goals which are more readily achieved cooperatively.
That’s a good point, but I think there are stricter conditions on the goodness of patriotism than merely consequential ones. I’m not sure how to articulate this, but as a disposition, patriotism is enough like a belief that it ought to be true, and not just beneficial.
Hm. I understand how patriotism might be a beneficial belief if my country is good and harmful otherwise. But you seem to be suggesting that patriotism is true if my country is good and false otherwise. Which suggests to me that we aren’t using the word “patriotism” the same way. Am I correct in inferring that, on your view, “X is patriotic” entails “X believes X’s country is good”?
But you seem to be suggesting that patriotism is true if my country is good and false otherwise.
Which suggests to me that we aren’t using the word “patriotism” the same way.
It looks more like you aren’t using the word true the same way.
Perhaps? I’m content to accept that “”X is patriotic” entails “X believes X’s country is good”″ ⇒ “X’s patriotism is true only if X’s country is good”. This is admittedly an extended sense of “true”, to mean something like “does not entail falsehoods,” but I’m willing to work with it.
I’m content to accept that “”X is patriotic” entails “X believes X’s country is good”″ ⇒ “X’s patriotism is true only if X’s country is good”.
I would accept those, or at least continue the conversation without commenting, although I’d squirm rather a lot at the final one. What I couldn’t accept is “patriotism is true”.
Am I correct in inferring that, on your view, “X is patriotic” entails “X believes X’s country is good”?
So I suppose patriotism is a kind of love. We could call a love good if the lover has good reason to think the beloved worthy of love and if the love is on the whole a benefit to lover and beloved. Your initial remark was that that patriotism can be good independently of the goodness of its object, because it can be a benefit. I think this captures one half of the above, both leaves out the ‘worthiness’ part. In other words, I think patriotism has to involve something like knowledge of the moral goodness of one’s country. It’s in that respect that patriotism is concerned with truth, rather than just with benefit.
As a teaching tool it seems almost useless; the language is antiquated, way past age-appropriate for elementary school, and while the meaning of the Pledge might be the subject of a third-grade civics lesson I don’t recall any substantial effort to break down its text in such a way as to integrate it into working knowledge.
Which now strikes me as a fairly clever bit of social engineering. At first I don’t think you’d need meaningful content; if you and your classmates are facing the flag, right hand over heart, and quoting from the text in unison, you’d still get group cohesion effects if the text itself was a list of Vedic demons or multilingual translations of the word “pickle”. But later, as children learn about concepts like duty by other means, they’re supplied with associations left over from their childhood practice. At least in theory; in practice this might be ruined by other associations, as elementary school’s usually not a terribly pleasant place for its inmates.
The “under God” bit can lead to some unpleasant cognitive dissonance as a secular child, too.
My thoughts exactly.
And I agree, ‘under God’ should be removed. But it’s not really a big deal. A substantial part of the value of secularism is in the fact that you have to go against the grain a bit.
The whole thing, though, is a giant “under God” of patriotism. A small nod to religion isn’t a big deal compared to that.
Well, not just patriotism (which is good if your country is good) but also the whole ‘liberty and justice for all’ thing. I think it’s kind of nice. I want liberty and justice for all.
Patriotism can also sometimes be good independent of whether my country is good, insofar as it can facilitate cooperation among patriots, who even in a bad country might have good goals which are more readily achieved cooperatively.
That’s a good point, but I think there are stricter conditions on the goodness of patriotism than merely consequential ones. I’m not sure how to articulate this, but as a disposition, patriotism is enough like a belief that it ought to be true, and not just beneficial.
Hm.
I understand how patriotism might be a beneficial belief if my country is good and harmful otherwise.
But you seem to be suggesting that patriotism is true if my country is good and false otherwise.
Which suggests to me that we aren’t using the word “patriotism” the same way.
Am I correct in inferring that, on your view, “X is patriotic” entails “X believes X’s country is good”?
It looks more like you aren’t using the word true the same way.
Perhaps?
I’m content to accept that “”X is patriotic” entails “X believes X’s country is good”″ ⇒ “X’s patriotism is true only if X’s country is good”. This is admittedly an extended sense of “true”, to mean something like “does not entail falsehoods,” but I’m willing to work with it.
I would accept those, or at least continue the conversation without commenting, although I’d squirm rather a lot at the final one. What I couldn’t accept is “patriotism is true”.
So I suppose patriotism is a kind of love. We could call a love good if the lover has good reason to think the beloved worthy of love and if the love is on the whole a benefit to lover and beloved. Your initial remark was that that patriotism can be good independently of the goodness of its object, because it can be a benefit. I think this captures one half of the above, both leaves out the ‘worthiness’ part. In other words, I think patriotism has to involve something like knowledge of the moral goodness of one’s country. It’s in that respect that patriotism is concerned with truth, rather than just with benefit.
In my experience with it, patriotism usually seems closer to a kind of hate. It does make people feel good about themselves, though.