I just discovered this blog today; looks thought-provoking.
Eliezer,
In theory, Christians can go one up on non-believers in the self-sacrificing stakes, which is to act in such a way as to condemn themselves to Hell, a fate which I would consider worse than non-existence. If they do it for the greater benefit of mankind this might be seen as a supreme act of virtue.
We then seem run into the question “Would a good God allow someone to go to Hell as a result of a supreme act of virtue?”
But that question is missing the point, unless we are trying imagine its manifestation and effect inside the mind of the would-be martyr. All that matters is that the would-be martyr thinks he is condemning himself to Hell, just as he thinks there will be beneficial consequences to others of his damnation. These beliefs could be right or wrong, but it would be unfair to judge virtue on the basis of knowledge. (We might judge it on the basis of rationality, but there might well be circumstances under which it is rational to believe in damnation resulting from a virtuous act.)
Satan as martyr is a well-explored theme, though you could say (depending on the story/interpretation) that Satan expects to benefit personally from his defiance of God, even if he knows he’s going to be defeated (in the form of getting to rule Hell, retaining his free will and/or simply the warm fuzzy feeling of having done good), and has principally selfish motives, so diminishing the virtue. A more clear-cut fictional example of ‘expected damnation arising from a virtuous act’ is given in the film ‘South Park: Bigger, Longer and Uncut’, but I’m sure it’s been done plenty of times before that.
Does anyone know of a real-life analogue of Kenny McCormick in this context? (Not in terms of whether they actually went to Hell, but in terms of what they thought the consequences of their actions would be, and the resulting choices they made.)
In theory, Christians can go one up on non-believers in the self-sacrificing stakes, which is to act in such a way as to condemn themselves to Hell, a fate which I would consider worse than non-existence. If they do it for the greater benefit of mankind this might be seen as a supreme act of virtue.
In theory, deed that would damn your soul is never a good deed, per definition.
Does anyone know of a real-life analogue of Kenny McCormick in this context? (Not in terms of whether they actually went to Hell, but in terms of what they thought the consequences of their actions would be, and the resulting choices they made.)
Dr. Maček was in custodio onesta and was interned for a while in Jasenovac. And when they become more familiar because they slept in the same room—Dr. Maček noticed that Miloš prayed every night before going to bed. Finally, he ventured the question, and he said, “How do you combine your Catholicism with the task you are performing in this camp?”. “Don’t ask me anything”, replied Miloš. “I know that I’ll burn in the hell—for everything I have done and for everything I’m going to do. But, I’ll burn for Croatia.”
I don’t know of any real-life analogue, though I would bet that some exist.
I recall that there is a fictional example in “The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn”, though: Huck believes that helping Jim escape slavery would be stealing, since that is what he had been taught living in the antebellum South, and he concludes that he will go to Hell for doing this. But he decides to help Jim anyway, even if it’s the “wrong” thing to do.
In theory, Christians can go one up on non-believers in the self-sacrificing stakes, which is to act in such a way as to condemn themselves to Hell, a fate which I would consider worse than non-existence. If they do it for the greater benefit of mankind this might be seen as a supreme act of virtue.
I’m surprised I didn’t point this out years ago, but theologians tend to agree that any act condemning oneself to Hell is bad (amongst those who believe God does not simply have the only say in such matters).
A common explanation is something like, “If you are capable of that kind of goodness and self-sacrifice, then you are depriving goodness of a great ally by being condemned to hell”.
I just discovered this blog today; looks thought-provoking.
Eliezer,
In theory, Christians can go one up on non-believers in the self-sacrificing stakes, which is to act in such a way as to condemn themselves to Hell, a fate which I would consider worse than non-existence. If they do it for the greater benefit of mankind this might be seen as a supreme act of virtue.
We then seem run into the question “Would a good God allow someone to go to Hell as a result of a supreme act of virtue?”
But that question is missing the point, unless we are trying imagine its manifestation and effect inside the mind of the would-be martyr. All that matters is that the would-be martyr thinks he is condemning himself to Hell, just as he thinks there will be beneficial consequences to others of his damnation. These beliefs could be right or wrong, but it would be unfair to judge virtue on the basis of knowledge. (We might judge it on the basis of rationality, but there might well be circumstances under which it is rational to believe in damnation resulting from a virtuous act.)
Satan as martyr is a well-explored theme, though you could say (depending on the story/interpretation) that Satan expects to benefit personally from his defiance of God, even if he knows he’s going to be defeated (in the form of getting to rule Hell, retaining his free will and/or simply the warm fuzzy feeling of having done good), and has principally selfish motives, so diminishing the virtue. A more clear-cut fictional example of ‘expected damnation arising from a virtuous act’ is given in the film ‘South Park: Bigger, Longer and Uncut’, but I’m sure it’s been done plenty of times before that.
Does anyone know of a real-life analogue of Kenny McCormick in this context? (Not in terms of whether they actually went to Hell, but in terms of what they thought the consequences of their actions would be, and the resulting choices they made.)
In theory, deed that would damn your soul is never a good deed, per definition.
Ljubo Milos,Croatian war criminal, according to anecdote:
Dr. Maček was in custodio onesta and was interned for a while in Jasenovac. And when they become more familiar because they slept in the same room—Dr. Maček noticed that Miloš prayed every night before going to bed. Finally, he ventured the question, and he said, “How do you combine your Catholicism with the task you are performing in this camp?”. “Don’t ask me anything”, replied Miloš. “I know that I’ll burn in the hell—for everything I have done and for everything I’m going to do. But, I’ll burn for Croatia.”
I don’t know of any real-life analogue, though I would bet that some exist. I recall that there is a fictional example in “The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn”, though: Huck believes that helping Jim escape slavery would be stealing, since that is what he had been taught living in the antebellum South, and he concludes that he will go to Hell for doing this. But he decides to help Jim anyway, even if it’s the “wrong” thing to do.
I’m surprised I didn’t point this out years ago, but theologians tend to agree that any act condemning oneself to Hell is bad (amongst those who believe God does not simply have the only say in such matters).
A common explanation is something like, “If you are capable of that kind of goodness and self-sacrifice, then you are depriving goodness of a great ally by being condemned to hell”.