Yes, of course that behind the veil of ignorance you wouldn’t like to be among the 1% who are in prisons, but significantly reducing that number may well be feasible only at the cost of making the lives of the remaining 99% much worse on average. Now, maybe you believe that this is not the case, but that requires a separate argument, and it certainly can’t be asserted as self-evident.
I meant that you wouldn’t like to be among the 1% in current prisons, rather than any number of better-structured alternatives. Given the various studies of and statistics on the current system, it doesn’t seem likely that this is the best we can do.
Also, high rates of recidivism can be an argument in favor of longer prison terms (especially for repeat offenders), if deterrence and incapacitation are recognized as the primary motives for imprisonment, rather than rehabilitation.
It can be, but I think that ignores the effects, psychological and otherwise, that current prisons seem to have on inmates. It seems like the system tends to encourage recidivism. Longer terms in an otherwise-unchanged system would be unlikely to accomplish professed goals better than larger reforms could.
I agree that the present-day U.S. prisons are absolutely horrible. On the other hand, their awfulness is an important element of deterrence, so it’s not entirely clear what the net consequences of making them less awful would be. It is also unclear what would be the cost of keeping such a large prison population in much better conditions.
Also, I’m far from convinced by the literature claiming that prisons encourage recidivism significantly on the net. There are certainly plausible scenarios of how this could happen, but I don’t know how statistically significant they really are in practice. On the whole, it seems to me that what evidence exists suggests that the harsh approach emphasizing deterrence and incapacitation has so far been vindicated much better in practice than the attempts to make rehabilitation feasible on a mass scale.
That said, I believe that the present system is heavily distorted by some biases that seem rather weird from a historical perspective, like for example the irrational revulsion against corporal punishment. One of my pet theories is that the present bias against torture ends up making prisons more torturous on the net, since it robs the authorities of effective means for enforcing prison discipline. (I elaborated on this theory in an OB comment a while ago.)
I agree that the present-day U.S. prisons are absolutely horrible. On the other hand, their awfulness is an important element of deterrence, so it’s not entirely clear what the net consequences of making them less awful would be.
With such high recidivism rates, though, deterrence doesn’t seem to be working too well.
As I think about this further, it occurs to me that maybe the deterrent effect partially results from people’s fear of the unknown. Once a person has been in prison, even with its awfulness, it might not seem as bad. (There’s also the problem that many repeat offenders come from environments so unstable that prison hardly seems bad by comparison, no matter what.)
It is also unclear what would be the cost of keeping such a large prison population in much better conditions.
One problem is the unreasonable size of the population itself, due in large part to the absurdity of U.S. drug laws and penalties. The large size of the prison population serves to point out that we should be trying to improve the system in a variety of ways. Also, just to clarify, when I made the Rawlsian argument about prisons, I was referring more to the incarceration vs. rehabilitation debate than the awfulness of conditions in general.
On the whole, it seems to me that what evidence exists suggests that the harsh approach emphasizing deterrence and incapacitation has so far been vindicated much better in practice than the attempts to make rehabilitation feasible on a mass scale.
Yes, I agree, but we should note that deterrence and incapacitation are much easier to implement effectively than rehabilitation. Locking people up is something we’ve known how to do for millennia; we’re not quite as practiced at understanding human psychology and neurology.
With such high recidivism rates, though, deterrence doesn’t seem to be working too well.
Not necessarily. Even very effective deterrence that drastically cuts crime may coexist with high recidivism rates, since those who ever get imprisoned in the first place are those for whom deterrence is less effective. A high percentage of repeat offenders among former prisoners doesn’t mean that there isn’t a huge population of potential offenders that are successfully deterred altogether. (Whether this is true is of course arguable.)
One problem is the unreasonable size of the population itself, due in large part to the absurdity of U.S. drug laws and penalties.
I don’t think “absurdity” is the right word. Drug laws are among those selectively enforced sweeping provisions that give the authorities a broad enough latitude to use them as pretext for enforcement of unwritten de facto norms which would be nowadays found unconstitutional or at least perceived as scandalous if spelled out explicitly, even though all respectable people hypocritically expect them to be enforced for their own benefit. Here I especially have in mind those norms that used to be enforced more openly through anti-vagrancy, anti-loitering, and similar laws. These are no longer considered constitutional, but respectable people still want the authorities to keep the underclass away from them.
In a sense, drug laws are for the underclass what the insider trading, arcane tax violations, conspiracy, obstruction of justice, and similar vague and sweeping laws are for the rich.
As I think about this further, it occurs to me that maybe the deterrent effect partially results from people’s fear of the unknown. Once a person has been in prison, even with its awfulness, it might not seem as bad.
Also, a significant element of any criminal punishment is the subsequent stigma of having been subjected to it, both informal and official (as reflected in background checks). This factor is clearly less relevant for repeated imprisonment.
Locking people up is something we’ve known how to do for millennia; we’re not quite as practiced at understanding human psychology and neurology.
Minor quibble: my understanding is that, in European-derived cultures at least, prison time as a punishment for crime in its own right is actually a relatively recent (i.e. post-Enlightenment) development. We’ve locked people up for millennia, but the victims have usually been political prisoners, prisoners of war, or people awaiting other forms of punishment.
Not that this really degrades your point about deterrence and incapacitation being easier to implement than rehabilitation.
A sufficiently long term (i.e. life sentence) does guarantee a ~0% recidivism rate. There are obviously other factors to consider, but if the primary goal is simply to reduce recidivism, longer sentences do have the benefit of simply reducing opportunities to commit a second (or third, or fourth...) crime.
I personally feel that this would be a terrible solution, especially given the financial costs involved. I’d argue that the goal is to make society safe at the lowest cost, since the saved costs can then (presumably) be spent on something that further helps society.
I’d argue that the goal is to make society safe at the lowest cost, since the saved costs can then (presumably) be spent on something that further helps society.
This suggests wide application of death penalty as an attractive option. Historically, English law took this approach, prescribing death penalty even for petty theft and similar offenses that would nowadays be seen as not too serious. (This changed with a series of reforms in the first half of the 19th century.)
Of course, the problem with death penalty is the irreversibility of the punishment in case of wrong conviction, and also that it gives criminals the incentive to murder at will once they’ve already done something that draws the death penalty (and to fight like cornered rats when being captured). However, my impression is that the old English system worked pretty well.
(Also, the problem with the death penalty as practiced in modern-day U.S. is that the amount of time and effort involved in the bureaucratic work that is necessary to execute someone is so vast that it ends up being more expensive than life imprisonment in practice. But this could of course be easily changed given the political will to do so.)
Your own comment seems to suggest that the cost of the death penalty is excessive: It reduces safety by causing innocent people to die, it reduces safety by making those criminals have nothing left to fear (and probably building a fair bit of resentment), it’s expensive due to bureaucratic practices, and it’s expensive because you lose all the resources invested in to that individual with no chance of redeeming them in to a productive member of society.
So, I suppose we’re in agreement that it’s not actually a practical solution for either the goal of safety or finances, even if some people might assume it is? :)
I meant that you wouldn’t like to be among the 1% in current prisons, rather than any number of better-structured alternatives. Given the various studies of and statistics on the current system, it doesn’t seem likely that this is the best we can do.
It can be, but I think that ignores the effects, psychological and otherwise, that current prisons seem to have on inmates. It seems like the system tends to encourage recidivism. Longer terms in an otherwise-unchanged system would be unlikely to accomplish professed goals better than larger reforms could.
I agree that the present-day U.S. prisons are absolutely horrible. On the other hand, their awfulness is an important element of deterrence, so it’s not entirely clear what the net consequences of making them less awful would be. It is also unclear what would be the cost of keeping such a large prison population in much better conditions.
Also, I’m far from convinced by the literature claiming that prisons encourage recidivism significantly on the net. There are certainly plausible scenarios of how this could happen, but I don’t know how statistically significant they really are in practice. On the whole, it seems to me that what evidence exists suggests that the harsh approach emphasizing deterrence and incapacitation has so far been vindicated much better in practice than the attempts to make rehabilitation feasible on a mass scale.
That said, I believe that the present system is heavily distorted by some biases that seem rather weird from a historical perspective, like for example the irrational revulsion against corporal punishment. One of my pet theories is that the present bias against torture ends up making prisons more torturous on the net, since it robs the authorities of effective means for enforcing prison discipline. (I elaborated on this theory in an OB comment a while ago.)
With such high recidivism rates, though, deterrence doesn’t seem to be working too well.
As I think about this further, it occurs to me that maybe the deterrent effect partially results from people’s fear of the unknown. Once a person has been in prison, even with its awfulness, it might not seem as bad. (There’s also the problem that many repeat offenders come from environments so unstable that prison hardly seems bad by comparison, no matter what.)
One problem is the unreasonable size of the population itself, due in large part to the absurdity of U.S. drug laws and penalties. The large size of the prison population serves to point out that we should be trying to improve the system in a variety of ways. Also, just to clarify, when I made the Rawlsian argument about prisons, I was referring more to the incarceration vs. rehabilitation debate than the awfulness of conditions in general.
Yes, I agree, but we should note that deterrence and incapacitation are much easier to implement effectively than rehabilitation. Locking people up is something we’ve known how to do for millennia; we’re not quite as practiced at understanding human psychology and neurology.
Not necessarily. Even very effective deterrence that drastically cuts crime may coexist with high recidivism rates, since those who ever get imprisoned in the first place are those for whom deterrence is less effective. A high percentage of repeat offenders among former prisoners doesn’t mean that there isn’t a huge population of potential offenders that are successfully deterred altogether. (Whether this is true is of course arguable.)
I don’t think “absurdity” is the right word. Drug laws are among those selectively enforced sweeping provisions that give the authorities a broad enough latitude to use them as pretext for enforcement of unwritten de facto norms which would be nowadays found unconstitutional or at least perceived as scandalous if spelled out explicitly, even though all respectable people hypocritically expect them to be enforced for their own benefit. Here I especially have in mind those norms that used to be enforced more openly through anti-vagrancy, anti-loitering, and similar laws. These are no longer considered constitutional, but respectable people still want the authorities to keep the underclass away from them.
In a sense, drug laws are for the underclass what the insider trading, arcane tax violations, conspiracy, obstruction of justice, and similar vague and sweeping laws are for the rich.
Also, a significant element of any criminal punishment is the subsequent stigma of having been subjected to it, both informal and official (as reflected in background checks). This factor is clearly less relevant for repeated imprisonment.
All good points.
Minor quibble: my understanding is that, in European-derived cultures at least, prison time as a punishment for crime in its own right is actually a relatively recent (i.e. post-Enlightenment) development. We’ve locked people up for millennia, but the victims have usually been political prisoners, prisoners of war, or people awaiting other forms of punishment.
Not that this really degrades your point about deterrence and incapacitation being easier to implement than rehabilitation.
A sufficiently long term (i.e. life sentence) does guarantee a ~0% recidivism rate. There are obviously other factors to consider, but if the primary goal is simply to reduce recidivism, longer sentences do have the benefit of simply reducing opportunities to commit a second (or third, or fourth...) crime.
I personally feel that this would be a terrible solution, especially given the financial costs involved. I’d argue that the goal is to make society safe at the lowest cost, since the saved costs can then (presumably) be spent on something that further helps society.
This suggests wide application of death penalty as an attractive option. Historically, English law took this approach, prescribing death penalty even for petty theft and similar offenses that would nowadays be seen as not too serious. (This changed with a series of reforms in the first half of the 19th century.)
Of course, the problem with death penalty is the irreversibility of the punishment in case of wrong conviction, and also that it gives criminals the incentive to murder at will once they’ve already done something that draws the death penalty (and to fight like cornered rats when being captured). However, my impression is that the old English system worked pretty well.
(Also, the problem with the death penalty as practiced in modern-day U.S. is that the amount of time and effort involved in the bureaucratic work that is necessary to execute someone is so vast that it ends up being more expensive than life imprisonment in practice. But this could of course be easily changed given the political will to do so.)
Your own comment seems to suggest that the cost of the death penalty is excessive: It reduces safety by causing innocent people to die, it reduces safety by making those criminals have nothing left to fear (and probably building a fair bit of resentment), it’s expensive due to bureaucratic practices, and it’s expensive because you lose all the resources invested in to that individual with no chance of redeeming them in to a productive member of society.
So, I suppose we’re in agreement that it’s not actually a practical solution for either the goal of safety or finances, even if some people might assume it is? :)