There are certain acts that are detrimental to the sustained existence of human society.
These acts are often highly beneficial to individual humans who commit them.
Society must substantially prevent these acts from occurring.
This gives a reason it might be instrumentally good to punish someone, but it’s only good so long as it’s necessary to prevent those acts. If there are better ways to prevent them, or punishing them isn’t sufficiently effective, then punishing them is a bad idea.
Carrying out just punishment does increase utility (there are interesting prisoner’s dilemma parallels here) in the aggregate in the long run, and thus we assign positive moral value to it.
We need to distinguish between terminal values and instrumental values. If you mean that it has a positive instrumental value, that means that we don’t imprison them because they should be punished. We do it for the greater good. If you mean that it has a positive terminal value just because it leads to something with a positive terminal value, that would logically result in each link of a chain of events resulting in something with a positive terminal value to increase the total terminal value exponentially.
I’m curious as to an alternative approach. What would you do with thieves, murderers, and rapists, that can actually be done with existing technology?
The issue here isn’t whether or not punishing people deters crime. It’s whether or not we are punishing people with the intention of reducing crime.
If punishing people is more cost-effective (counting their own unhappiness as cost) than giving them a psychiatrist and trying to reform them, so be it. If not, let’s give them a psychiatrist instead.
This is ignoring my (2) - those acts are individually beneficial. I want a nice watch. I steal a nice watch. It’s unclear how a psychiatrist is going to be particularly helpful here, if there’s no punishment. Moreover, what if I don’t want to go to the psychiatrist? Am I allowed to wander around freely before I finish my sessions? What if he can’t help me? Ultimately, the psychiatrist is still a punishment—I’m being compelled to go even if I otherwise might not. The fact that it’s a much nicer punishment than prison doesn’t change the fact that it’s a punishment. You wouldn’t give me free psychiatric sessions that I had no obligation to go to in response to my stealing something (or killing someone).
I think I’m in agreement with you on the terminal/instrumental bit. I just think of it bigger-picture. If someone murders his wife, it is good to punish him irrespective of the fact that he has no chance of reoffense. I think my main objection is that I don’t think there’s a world that is likely to exist in which non-coercive responses to certain actions provide adequate deterrence, so there’s no practical difference between justice being a terminal value and not being a terminal value. But that’s somewhat irrelevant.
However, I might even go so far as to say it is good to punish him even if it has no chance of deterring anyone else. Similarly, if I had $10 to give to a serial killer or a sick orphan, I’d give it to the orphan, even if they would experience an equal amount of happiness from obtaining it (and only partly because “equal amount of happiness” may not be a meaningful concept in human language). I believe this choice is typical of all of humanity. The idea of justice as a terminal value requires more development than I can properly do in a comment response; I’ll develop a top-level post on the issue soon.
I think I’m in agreement with you on the terminal/instrumental bit.
The idea of justice as a terminal value...
I don’t understand. Do you think justice has terminal value, or just instrumental value?
Punishment may very well be the best way to minimize harm. I’m not saying it necessarily isn’t. I’m just saying that hurting a criminal has negative terminal value. As far as I can understand, the terminal value of punishment is what this post is about.
This gives a reason it might be instrumentally good to punish someone, but it’s only good so long as it’s necessary to prevent those acts. If there are better ways to prevent them, or punishing them isn’t sufficiently effective, then punishing them is a bad idea.
We need to distinguish between terminal values and instrumental values. If you mean that it has a positive instrumental value, that means that we don’t imprison them because they should be punished. We do it for the greater good. If you mean that it has a positive terminal value just because it leads to something with a positive terminal value, that would logically result in each link of a chain of events resulting in something with a positive terminal value to increase the total terminal value exponentially.
The issue here isn’t whether or not punishing people deters crime. It’s whether or not we are punishing people with the intention of reducing crime.
If punishing people is more cost-effective (counting their own unhappiness as cost) than giving them a psychiatrist and trying to reform them, so be it. If not, let’s give them a psychiatrist instead.
This is ignoring my (2) - those acts are individually beneficial. I want a nice watch. I steal a nice watch. It’s unclear how a psychiatrist is going to be particularly helpful here, if there’s no punishment. Moreover, what if I don’t want to go to the psychiatrist? Am I allowed to wander around freely before I finish my sessions? What if he can’t help me? Ultimately, the psychiatrist is still a punishment—I’m being compelled to go even if I otherwise might not. The fact that it’s a much nicer punishment than prison doesn’t change the fact that it’s a punishment. You wouldn’t give me free psychiatric sessions that I had no obligation to go to in response to my stealing something (or killing someone).
I think I’m in agreement with you on the terminal/instrumental bit. I just think of it bigger-picture. If someone murders his wife, it is good to punish him irrespective of the fact that he has no chance of reoffense. I think my main objection is that I don’t think there’s a world that is likely to exist in which non-coercive responses to certain actions provide adequate deterrence, so there’s no practical difference between justice being a terminal value and not being a terminal value. But that’s somewhat irrelevant.
However, I might even go so far as to say it is good to punish him even if it has no chance of deterring anyone else. Similarly, if I had $10 to give to a serial killer or a sick orphan, I’d give it to the orphan, even if they would experience an equal amount of happiness from obtaining it (and only partly because “equal amount of happiness” may not be a meaningful concept in human language). I believe this choice is typical of all of humanity. The idea of justice as a terminal value requires more development than I can properly do in a comment response; I’ll develop a top-level post on the issue soon.
I don’t understand. Do you think justice has terminal value, or just instrumental value?
Punishment may very well be the best way to minimize harm. I’m not saying it necessarily isn’t. I’m just saying that hurting a criminal has negative terminal value. As far as I can understand, the terminal value of punishment is what this post is about.