I don’t understand your recommendation for my future actions.
Desrotopa said something that could be interpreted as “asserting a moral right to a position that hurts the soda machine does not hurt any human being.” That is not precisely true, because harms to the soda machine are harms to the owner of the soda machine—and eventually, that reasoning traces to a human being.
I was trying to improve Eugine’s argument by including that point (tracing back to humans) explicitly. That is, I predict a reasonable person asserting Eugine’s positions would express the point I made. I wouldn’t have do that if I didn’t think it made Eugine’s overall argument better. I think the point is valid, as far as it goes, but it doesn’t address all of Desrtopa’s points. In my experience, explicitly laying out the points of agreement and disagree enhances rational argument by focusing attention on the disagreement.
If that’s not what you think steel-manning should mean, so be it. Saying the other side’s arguments in ways they would agree with, for the purpose of clarifying a disagreement, is at least potentially rationality enhancing. If Eugine finds it unhelpful, I’ll stop doing it with him. If he thinks I mis-stated his position, then I will correct.
I don’t understand your recommendation for my future actions.
The quote from Eugine being responded to was:
Taboo “entitled”. To use your example, is it entitled of me to expect a soda after putting 6 quarters into a vending machine.
The description you made was less reasonable than a literal interpretation of Eugine’s request. Therefore it cannot be said to be a steel man. At best it could be said to be “steel manning Desrtopa’s straw man”. This is an improvement but still not a steel man of Eugine’s claims. Saying that it is a steel man (and in the process suggesting that even then it is inadequate) both sends a false message about Eugine’s words and devalues the ‘Steel Man’ process.
So that cannot possibly be said that you do not understand my recommendation for future actions: In similar circumstances do not say this:
However, steel-manning his point in that way doesn’t address the remainder of your post.
To be clear, let me disclaim that I heartily endorse the other part of the comment, which was:
In fairness to Eugine’s point, there are humans lurking somewhere behind the soda machine—the shareholders of the soda company, if no one else.
The above does all those virtuous things that you describe in the parent.
That makes sense. Thus, better phrasing of my intended point would be:
In fairness to Eugine’s point, there are humans lurking somewhere behind the soda machine—the shareholders of the soda company, if no one else.
To the extent that Desrtopa’s response implied that Eugine believed no human preferences are at issue with the soda machine example, that was setting up a strawman. However, the presence of human preferences related to the soda machine does not address Desrtopa’s other points.
I don’t understand your recommendation for my future actions.
Desrotopa said something that could be interpreted as “asserting a moral right to a position that hurts the soda machine does not hurt any human being.” That is not precisely true, because harms to the soda machine are harms to the owner of the soda machine—and eventually, that reasoning traces to a human being.
I was trying to improve Eugine’s argument by including that point (tracing back to humans) explicitly. That is, I predict a reasonable person asserting Eugine’s positions would express the point I made. I wouldn’t have do that if I didn’t think it made Eugine’s overall argument better. I think the point is valid, as far as it goes, but it doesn’t address all of Desrtopa’s points. In my experience, explicitly laying out the points of agreement and disagree enhances rational argument by focusing attention on the disagreement.
If that’s not what you think steel-manning should mean, so be it. Saying the other side’s arguments in ways they would agree with, for the purpose of clarifying a disagreement, is at least potentially rationality enhancing. If Eugine finds it unhelpful, I’ll stop doing it with him. If he thinks I mis-stated his position, then I will correct.
The quote from Eugine being responded to was:
The description you made was less reasonable than a literal interpretation of Eugine’s request. Therefore it cannot be said to be a steel man. At best it could be said to be “steel manning Desrtopa’s straw man”. This is an improvement but still not a steel man of Eugine’s claims. Saying that it is a steel man (and in the process suggesting that even then it is inadequate) both sends a false message about Eugine’s words and devalues the ‘Steel Man’ process.
So that cannot possibly be said that you do not understand my recommendation for future actions: In similar circumstances do not say this:
To be clear, let me disclaim that I heartily endorse the other part of the comment, which was:
The above does all those virtuous things that you describe in the parent.
That makes sense. Thus, better phrasing of my intended point would be: