How is bridge-building not a game when the FAI could just flick a switch and transport you across the river in any number of ways that are much more efficient?
It can’t actually do that, because it’s not what its preference tells it to do. The same way you can’t jump out of the window given you are not suicidal.
It can’t actually do that, because it’s not what its preference tells it to do. The same way you can’t jump out of the window given you are not suicidal.
By that reasoning, World of Warcraft is not a game because the admins can’t make me level 80 on day 1, because that’s not what their preferences tell them to do… Or am I missing your point?
I’m attacking a specific argument that “FAI could just flick a switch”. Whether it moves your conclusion about the described situation being a game depends on how genuine your argument for it being a game was and on how much you accept my counter-argument.
Could one of you précis the disagreement in a little more detail and with background? When you and Wei Dai disagree, I’d really like to understand the discussion better, but the discussion it sprang out of doesn’t seem all that enlightening—thanks!
I originally said that post-FAI, we’d have no real problems to solve, so everything we do would be like playing games, and we’d take a status hit because of that. Nesov allegedly found a way to recast the situation so that we can avoid taking the status hit, but I remain unconvinced. I admit this is one of our more trivial discussions. :)
I originally didn’t bother to do so explicitly, only wrote this reply that seems to have not been understood, but in light of Eliezer’s post about flow of the argument, I’ll recast the structure I see in the last few comments:
Wei: Bridge-building is a game, because FAI could just flick a switch. (Y leads to X having property S; Y=”could flick a switch”, X=”FAI’s world”, S=”is a game”) Vlad: No it couldn’t, its preference (for us having to make an effort) makes it impossible for that to happen. (Y doesn’t hold for X) Wei: But there are games where players don’t get free charity as well. (Z have property S without needing Y) Vlad: I’m merely saying that Y doesn’t hold, so if Y held any weight in the argument that “Y leads to X having property S”, then having established not-Y, I’ve weakened the support for X having property S, and at least refuted the particular argument for X having property S, even if I haven’t convincingly argued that X doesn’t have property S overall.
When I wrote “Bridge-building is a game, because FAI could just flick a switch” the intended meaning of “could” was “could if it wanted to”. When I cited WoW later, I was trying to point out that your interpretation of “could” as “could given its actual preferences” can’t be what I intended because it would rule out WoW as a game. I guess I failed to get my point across, and then thought the argument was too inconsequential to continue. But now that you’re using it as an example, I want to clear up what happened.
Is this a disagreement that is more about the meaning of words than anything else? I think you are Nesov are disagreeing about the meanings of game and real problems or maybe problems. Both of you defining those terms would help.
In the short term, I think you are correct. However, in the long term, I’m hoping that the FAI will find a non-disastrous way for us to become superintelligent ourselves, and therefore again be able to participate in solving real problems.
It can’t actually do that, because it’s not what its preference tells it to do. The same way you can’t jump out of the window given you are not suicidal.
By that reasoning, World of Warcraft is not a game because the admins can’t make me level 80 on day 1, because that’s not what their preferences tell them to do… Or am I missing your point?
I’m attacking a specific argument that “FAI could just flick a switch”. Whether it moves your conclusion about the described situation being a game depends on how genuine your argument for it being a game was and on how much you accept my counter-argument.
Could one of you précis the disagreement in a little more detail and with background? When you and Wei Dai disagree, I’d really like to understand the discussion better, but the discussion it sprang out of doesn’t seem all that enlightening—thanks!
I originally said that post-FAI, we’d have no real problems to solve, so everything we do would be like playing games, and we’d take a status hit because of that. Nesov allegedly found a way to recast the situation so that we can avoid taking the status hit, but I remain unconvinced. I admit this is one of our more trivial discussions. :)
I originally didn’t bother to do so explicitly, only wrote this reply that seems to have not been understood, but in light of Eliezer’s post about flow of the argument, I’ll recast the structure I see in the last few comments:
Wei: Bridge-building is a game, because FAI could just flick a switch. (Y leads to X having property S; Y=”could flick a switch”, X=”FAI’s world”, S=”is a game”)
Vlad: No it couldn’t, its preference (for us having to make an effort) makes it impossible for that to happen. (Y doesn’t hold for X)
Wei: But there are games where players don’t get free charity as well. (Z have property S without needing Y)
Vlad: I’m merely saying that Y doesn’t hold, so if Y held any weight in the argument that “Y leads to X having property S”, then having established not-Y, I’ve weakened the support for X having property S, and at least refuted the particular argument for X having property S, even if I haven’t convincingly argued that X doesn’t have property S overall.
When I wrote “Bridge-building is a game, because FAI could just flick a switch” the intended meaning of “could” was “could if it wanted to”. When I cited WoW later, I was trying to point out that your interpretation of “could” as “could given its actual preferences” can’t be what I intended because it would rule out WoW as a game. I guess I failed to get my point across, and then thought the argument was too inconsequential to continue. But now that you’re using it as an example, I want to clear up what happened.
Is this a disagreement that is more about the meaning of words than anything else? I think you are Nesov are disagreeing about the meanings of game and real problems or maybe problems. Both of you defining those terms would help.
In the short term, I think you are correct. However, in the long term, I’m hoping that the FAI will find a non-disastrous way for us to become superintelligent ourselves, and therefore again be able to participate in solving real problems.